95 Comments
User's avatar
Alessandro Giorgio's avatar

Just when I’m like “fuck I have like three hours of driving to do tomorrow what depressing or alarming thing am I going to listen to?”

Expand full comment
Diabolical Lies's avatar

we gift you: depressing AND alarming!

Expand full comment
Alessandro Giorgio's avatar

lol my wife was like “can we maybe not listen to this first thing in the morning together?”

Expand full comment
Amanda J's avatar

Absolutely hooting and hollering at this outro, Nick you are a hero.

So much has been said and dissected about Gaza, the fight for Palestinian freedom, and the history of Zionism in the past few years that this very well could have just been a discourse recap (which I also would have enjoyed and appreciated). But I really admire the thought and care that went into the research and work here to give this conversation a fresh lens to see it through and bring it even closer to home.

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

thank you so much, Amanda, I can't tell you how much that means to me! this one felt like my biggest intellectual swing yet (lmao) and a very sensitive and important one at that, so your comment has been a balm to my nerves about it

Expand full comment
Sound Bytes's avatar

Thank you Amanda! Happy you liked it

Expand full comment
May Kim's avatar

Absolutely loved this episode! Thank you Katie and Caro for all the research, thoughtful outline, and the insightful points discussed. Hands down the best episode yet!

Expand full comment
Helen's avatar

Hey! I’m a teacher in Texas (SPEd) and I’d love to hear an ep about the education/ disability identity in America. Just switched my subscription to the substack option over Apple Podcasts, so happy to support this project and it’s redistribution of funds to deserving causes. 🇵🇸🍉

Expand full comment
Kieran Mundy's avatar

omg yes making this episode unpaid so we can send it to all of our "it's complicated" friends and relatives!!

Expand full comment
Ad's avatar

As soon as I heard, “Terrorism is defined less by action and more by identity,” my brain went “AND IT’S COMING HOME, BABY! Of course y’all got there like 5 mins later

Expand full comment
Ad's avatar
8dEdited

Also 1) laughed so hard at Katie’s “weally quiet dwone stwikes” and 2) would LOVE an ep about “violence” vs. peaceful protest in the civil rights movement (and maybe other movements but as that was America’s only true revolution I’d love that lens)

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

I vote Caro does a full paid deep dive on the Black Panthers

Expand full comment
Henah Velez's avatar

Proud of you KGT ❤️👏🏽

Expand full comment
Erin McNeil's avatar

Oh you guys I was not prepared for the news that ICE/police/etc are getting training and getting tech (tech produced by US companies and tested on Palestinians for fucks sake) from the IDF.... fuuuuck we are fucking doomed. Not only are we swimming in a cesspool of misinformation, AI generated BS and propaganda, butttttttt any of us who speak out/protest/give information that goes against that will be surveilled online/in-person, kept out of schools, kept out of jobs, possibly sent to a US gulag... hahahahaaaaaaa aaaahhhhhhhhhhh

Expand full comment
caro claire burke's avatar

Much doomed, such cooked

Expand full comment
Erin McNeil's avatar

Alright ladies lollllllll time to get those VPNs, burner phones, low tech lifestyles genned up. We need to get Ronan Farrow to come onto the pod to give us a pep talk on dodging IDF-style surveillance lollll

Expand full comment
spinsterrevival's avatar

I’m only 20 minutes in, but you all just got yourselves a new paid subscriber. Ok back to listening now.

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

hello! welcome! (and thank you)

Expand full comment
Nina Myles's avatar

Needed to share that when Manifest Destiny was mentioned I turned the volume up like you were blasting my favorite song.

Expand full comment
caro claire burke's avatar

HA

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

snorted

Expand full comment
Tayla's avatar

This was depressing but I still found myself so appreciative of the insights. I really resonated with the sentiment of "where do the people I respect as morally and intellectually sound individuals fall on this topic" as a good first step in deciding where you fall. Katie and Caro are counted among my list of people who fit the above criteria now. I also wanted to say thank you for donating part of our subscription fees to such a worthy cause, it's hard to help given (as outlined in this ep) what people are up against when trying to help Gaza. It can't have been easy to put together this episode so thank you for the work and dedication. <3

Expand full comment
Alessandro Giorgio's avatar

See you guys CAN do an amazing outro! Five stars. Five head explodes 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

Also little tidbit from Australia: our prime minister’s name is also Albanese, and has been absolutely piss weak on Gaza despite being outspoken when he was a younger politician. So we on the left here refer to Francesca as “the good Albanese”

Expand full comment
Heather's avatar

The caesura to introduce the triumvirate of Malcolm X, James Baldwin & Angela Davis provided me with a surprising boomerang to my adolescence in the late 1980s. My very incredible Nana ensured I read what she deemed to be “the important shite.” Thank you for reminding me of where my own political predilections were fomented.

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

your Nana sounds like a spirit guide for DL

Expand full comment
Alissa Redding's avatar

Outstanding episode, no notes

Expand full comment
Mer's avatar

This is so good so far! I’m at the part about how black progressive leaders have long allied themselves with Palestine, and it reminds me of Cori Bush and how she worked with Palestinian activists and spoke out against Israel ever since she first gained a platform in Ferguson. You will not believe this but she was just recently primaried by an AIPAC-backed opponent

Expand full comment
Katie Gatti Tassin's avatar

*pretends to be shocked*

Expand full comment
P.C.'s avatar

@Katie, this was an exceptional piece of research journalism. I think that you and @Caro have generously engaged with my responses enough over the past year to know that I am always coming from a place simultaneously of good faith, political skepticism, ethical pragmatism, and (hopefully) historical contextualism, and I feel the need to have the occasional "fill-in-the-blanks" dialogue.

I do think that you "yada-yada'd" the Six-Day War of 1967 (and the Yom Kippur war of 1973), and I also believe that you kind of glossed over the fact that when the cited activists and intellectuals were referring to "Palestine", they were referring to the REGION of Palestine, *which includes Israel* and the West Bank, and not "Gaza."

The call for Palestinian Liberation in the sixties (and now!) *is* a call for the ultimate elimination of the State of Isreal. Which is a fine debate, and even movement, that should be engaged in without fear of accusations of antisemitism. But that *is* the demand that must be reckoned with (just as it was with the historical calls for dissolution of other states/regimes).

I think that there is a pretty clear line of delineation on perceptions of jihad/Islamism/etc doctrines that can be roughly distilled to "how old were you on 9/11." Hence the Sam Harris barb.

FWIW, I've always been pretty clear-eyed that U.S. actions were born of allyship with Isreal, and nothing else... again, as you stated, just like with Saudi Arabia.

In the end, you should be incredibly proud of your work here, the answers you provided, the context you did offer, and the thesis you attempted to prove. Happy to support the efforts, as always.

Expand full comment