Loved the discussion around how it’s consuming in general that should be challenged above and beyond the where. It’s really interesting when you put consumerism under the lens of how being able to buy our cheap shit is part of what keeps us (the “middle class”) complacent. I’ve been thinking a lot about this in terms of Brave New World and how so much of what is popular and normalized in society (alcohol, drugs, shopping, social media, reality TV, etc.) are really just ways to numb and distract. We don’t have to feel or deal with the world because we can stay in our curated bubbles. It’s also interesting when you get to the “selling out” piece because of how we want to point the finger at others, even though every one of us who works a corporate job is just as guilty.
the role of consumption as cheap escapism is *such* a good point that did not even occur to me as I was fleshing out this outline and now i'm mad at myself lol
Loved this ep. I think a lot about my own 'selling out' as a no name civilian trying to figure out a non-evil job that still pays me enough to live and have fun in the city--impossible as a person who wasn't born into money. Anyway, I don't have specific brands that I'd sell out to (yet) but I do have things I want, and I have a grand Instagram campaign to get them all at once. It's a series of photos where you keep seeing me in the same pieces of clothing over the course of a few weeks and I get to collab with a clothing brand, furniture brand, and appliance brand. People comment on my being an outfit repeater until I do a big reveal: X clothing brand has such nice clothing that I love so much so I have 'the chair' from Y furniture company where I hang all the items to rewear while they're not quite dirty and the fancy washer dryer from Z appliance brand that keeps all my nice clothes in good shape so I can keep wearing them forever. (I live in New York and don't currently have laundry in unit, so the washer dryer is the most important part). Super win because then my consumerism lets me and the brands gesture at sustainability. Brands, please call me to begin the bidding war over my 3 figure follower count.
Lol I’m currently much deeper into a Victorian dollhouse home feel but i’ve decided the clothing brand is Rachel Antonoff and a part of my contract is being a part of the Fashion Week dog show https://www.instagram.com/p/DOgmYi4kbEd/
One argument I’d make for shopping locally is that it creates local jobs (unless you live in a city that has an Amazon warehouse). Hopefully the local retailer has acceptable working conditions.
yep, there was a whole section that we didn't even get to about local protectionism as a way forward (basically, relocalizing commerce, finance, etc. to businesses owned and run locally and doing the same with credit unions). good point
Listening to new episode now. Did you guys know David Sacks, Elon Musk, and Peter Thiel helped fund the movie Thank You for Smoking? They are listed as producers, and Elon makes a cameo as a flight attendant or pilot. This was back in 2005. Quite telling to see where they are now.🥴😵💫
I remember the streets in New York when I was little (1960ish). We couldn't walk barefoot on the streets because of all the broken glass. Hobos would walk the streets and pick up cigarette butts and shake the leftover tobacco into paper bags to roll later. Every bit of greenspace was covered in litter. I remember people just dropping their food wrappers on the ground at they walked even though trash bins sat on almost every corner.
I’ve sold out more times than I can count, and I hope to keep doing it again and again. Writing music for commercials (Google, Instacart, Bud Light etc) is what finally let me start an IRA at 30, sleep without night sweats, and fund the album of my dreams. Selling out is what bought me the freedom to make art I actually care about. The real dream is to sell out with the art I love. Still working on that part.
I sent a song to the diabolical lies email that this pod inspired. No pressure to listen, just love what you’re putting out. Thanks for the creative fuel 🤘
The bit with Amazon and AWS had a thread I wanted to pull on. And also wanted to push back on the 'gov doesn't have the expertise' line. The military and US gov are heavily tied into the profits and success of these companies. So much so that when there are breakthroughs, many times it is credited to private sector, but in reality was a program that came out of the military/most secret parts of gov. The internet, as well as GPS and countless other forward-looking tech, was created by the military and then opened up to the public. Additionally, the revolving door of gov/contractor means gov workers often create the best tech internally, then leave to create a company and implement the exact same tech in private sector to make available to the public. With this being said, the gov has the expertise, it's just not going to say it does, which leaves a vacuous space for gov-hating messaging. And to Katie's point, is there any thing we can really do to cut their profits if the gov is so tied into them?... I would be interested in hearing an episode that did a deep dive on this relationship and what alternatives exist.
This leads to another thought, which came up in the discussion of art and finance. What does it look like if we fund other parts of the gov like we do the military? When talking about the 'woman in a bakery' idea, it brought to mind my favorite American art period: the Works Progress Administration Federal Art Project, funded by FDR's administration. This art focuses on social realism and the day to day of the working class, something that exists as a direct antithesis to the funding by elites... because it wasn't.
One more Depression era art connection I learned recently while visiting Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater: the wealthy Kauffman family had this built by FLW and employed him after 10 years of no work (due to the depression). They were also friendly with Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera. This friendship interested me and so I asked the tour guide how that relationship worked, knowing the artists' political affiliations and assuming the wealthy business owners'. He proceeded to tell an anecdote of a mural Frida and Diego were commissioned for that were to portray wealthy business owners in the community and the successes of capitalism. They chose not to do the mural in the end because it was so out of line with their own beliefs. These two vignettes of the artists and their funding in the Depression fascinated me and feels like a lot more to dive into historically here. Hope these lengthy posts aren't too rambling and add to the discussion! <3
I watched that episode of Mad Men with my mom and she gasped and had me re-wind and watch it again, it brought back so many memories of eating in the park when she was a kid and doing the exact same thing, just tossing the napkins on the ground and walking away (she was born in 1958, Philadelphia).
Such an enlightening episode to think about how we participate in society and “choosing your battles” in certain ways. I was thinking about a lot of these topics in the past few days.
Tony’s Chocolonely chocolates has been scrutinized because of a company they partner with in their supply chain but they have addressed it as working from within to create change. But they still have made a HUGE impact on the cocoa farmers they work with and addressed other ethical concerns in the usual chocolate industry.
I was also telling my husband that I did not realize how vast AWS span was in the day to day of the internet, and hearing the stats just made me think that cutting out a prime subscription doesn’t do much in the grand scheme of things given they profit more from me using other online platforms. It’s like a game you cant win, so you just need to survive through.
ETA: my big sellout brand would probably be Coca cola or Haagen Daaz, as of recent I can add Bottega Veneta 😂
It pains me as a 90s kid who grew up in the NYC skater scene to know that Gen X evolved into the generation that overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
We formed a collective identity as modeled by Cobain, Kathleen Hanna, Sonic Youth, Harmony Korine, Donna Tartt & other Gen X indie icons. We were self-righteously iconoclastic & devoted to our mistrust of anything that hit the zeitgeist, including the aforementioned artists. Consumption was anathema to our ethos in direct response to the excesses of the previous decade.
I can’t venture to posit exactly where my generation sold out but I would argue that as a collective we sold out everything that we once held dear. Our pious culture of being anti-everything was probably summed up best by Fiona Apple’s acceptance speech at the 1997 MTV video music awards:
“This world is bullshit. And you shouldn’t model your life about what you think that we think is cool and what we’re wearing and what we’re saying and everything. Go with yourself. Go with yourself…And it’s just stupid that I’m in this world, but you’re all very cool to me so thank you very much. And I’m sorry for all the people that I didn’t thank, but man… it’s good. Bye.”
I just watched The White House Effect which gives a bit of history about policy and messaging and how it’s changed around global warming. There’s an interview with a guy waiting in line for gas during the 70’s energy crisis who suggests that everyone stop everything, put their cars in the garage and stay home. The interviewer asks “why aren’t you doing that?” And the guy says “cuz no one else is.” Social contracts and messaging play such a big part in our habits of consumption, especially now that we have access to so much information. There’s a cognitive dissonance to justify our habits of consumption; I often hear friends guiltily explain they bought something from SHEIN. But we’re also conditioned to keep consuming to keep the capitalist wheels of justice turning or the whole system will fall apart and we’ll lose everything. Some of you bbs might not remember, but after 9-11 the message was to keep shopping (to fight terrorism? lol) Even during these recent BDS movements, people were boycotting Target for removing DEI initiatives but were shifting their shopping to other retailers like Amazon or Costco (folks were literally urging people to “support” Costco and their pro DEI stance by spending money there all while their employees were getting ready to strike) rather than refusing to consume altogether. There’s been a growing movement for economic black outs, but can we (or at least 30% of us) really all go ONE DAY without consumption?
Loved the discussion around how it’s consuming in general that should be challenged above and beyond the where. It’s really interesting when you put consumerism under the lens of how being able to buy our cheap shit is part of what keeps us (the “middle class”) complacent. I’ve been thinking a lot about this in terms of Brave New World and how so much of what is popular and normalized in society (alcohol, drugs, shopping, social media, reality TV, etc.) are really just ways to numb and distract. We don’t have to feel or deal with the world because we can stay in our curated bubbles. It’s also interesting when you get to the “selling out” piece because of how we want to point the finger at others, even though every one of us who works a corporate job is just as guilty.
the role of consumption as cheap escapism is *such* a good point that did not even occur to me as I was fleshing out this outline and now i'm mad at myself lol
Loved this ep. I think a lot about my own 'selling out' as a no name civilian trying to figure out a non-evil job that still pays me enough to live and have fun in the city--impossible as a person who wasn't born into money. Anyway, I don't have specific brands that I'd sell out to (yet) but I do have things I want, and I have a grand Instagram campaign to get them all at once. It's a series of photos where you keep seeing me in the same pieces of clothing over the course of a few weeks and I get to collab with a clothing brand, furniture brand, and appliance brand. People comment on my being an outfit repeater until I do a big reveal: X clothing brand has such nice clothing that I love so much so I have 'the chair' from Y furniture company where I hang all the items to rewear while they're not quite dirty and the fancy washer dryer from Z appliance brand that keeps all my nice clothes in good shape so I can keep wearing them forever. (I live in New York and don't currently have laundry in unit, so the washer dryer is the most important part). Super win because then my consumerism lets me and the brands gesture at sustainability. Brands, please call me to begin the bidding war over my 3 figure follower count.
this is the level of detail i wanted in a response, and now we need to know what your ideal chair is and why it's the herman miller eames chair
Lol I’m currently much deeper into a Victorian dollhouse home feel but i’ve decided the clothing brand is Rachel Antonoff and a part of my contract is being a part of the Fashion Week dog show https://www.instagram.com/p/DOgmYi4kbEd/
oh we’ve been needing this. thank u for my sunday present of two smart women talking in my ear for hours 😘
One argument I’d make for shopping locally is that it creates local jobs (unless you live in a city that has an Amazon warehouse). Hopefully the local retailer has acceptable working conditions.
yep, there was a whole section that we didn't even get to about local protectionism as a way forward (basically, relocalizing commerce, finance, etc. to businesses owned and run locally and doing the same with credit unions). good point
Just getting to the part about littering. That’s where the phrase “don’t mess with Texas” comes from.
Listening to new episode now. Did you guys know David Sacks, Elon Musk, and Peter Thiel helped fund the movie Thank You for Smoking? They are listed as producers, and Elon makes a cameo as a flight attendant or pilot. This was back in 2005. Quite telling to see where they are now.🥴😵💫
cc @caro !!!!!
I remember the streets in New York when I was little (1960ish). We couldn't walk barefoot on the streets because of all the broken glass. Hobos would walk the streets and pick up cigarette butts and shake the leftover tobacco into paper bags to roll later. Every bit of greenspace was covered in litter. I remember people just dropping their food wrappers on the ground at they walked even though trash bins sat on almost every corner.
omg so the country WAS covered in trash lol this is enlightening
Reminds me of that episode in Mad Men where Don and Betty take the kids for a picnic and just … leave the trash. Annoys me to this day.
I’ve sold out more times than I can count, and I hope to keep doing it again and again. Writing music for commercials (Google, Instacart, Bud Light etc) is what finally let me start an IRA at 30, sleep without night sweats, and fund the album of my dreams. Selling out is what bought me the freedom to make art I actually care about. The real dream is to sell out with the art I love. Still working on that part.
I sent a song to the diabolical lies email that this pod inspired. No pressure to listen, just love what you’re putting out. Thanks for the creative fuel 🤘
I need “famously mentally ill and self obsessed” on this merch!
Would buy on presale
The bit with Amazon and AWS had a thread I wanted to pull on. And also wanted to push back on the 'gov doesn't have the expertise' line. The military and US gov are heavily tied into the profits and success of these companies. So much so that when there are breakthroughs, many times it is credited to private sector, but in reality was a program that came out of the military/most secret parts of gov. The internet, as well as GPS and countless other forward-looking tech, was created by the military and then opened up to the public. Additionally, the revolving door of gov/contractor means gov workers often create the best tech internally, then leave to create a company and implement the exact same tech in private sector to make available to the public. With this being said, the gov has the expertise, it's just not going to say it does, which leaves a vacuous space for gov-hating messaging. And to Katie's point, is there any thing we can really do to cut their profits if the gov is so tied into them?... I would be interested in hearing an episode that did a deep dive on this relationship and what alternatives exist.
This leads to another thought, which came up in the discussion of art and finance. What does it look like if we fund other parts of the gov like we do the military? When talking about the 'woman in a bakery' idea, it brought to mind my favorite American art period: the Works Progress Administration Federal Art Project, funded by FDR's administration. This art focuses on social realism and the day to day of the working class, something that exists as a direct antithesis to the funding by elites... because it wasn't.
One more Depression era art connection I learned recently while visiting Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater: the wealthy Kauffman family had this built by FLW and employed him after 10 years of no work (due to the depression). They were also friendly with Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera. This friendship interested me and so I asked the tour guide how that relationship worked, knowing the artists' political affiliations and assuming the wealthy business owners'. He proceeded to tell an anecdote of a mural Frida and Diego were commissioned for that were to portray wealthy business owners in the community and the successes of capitalism. They chose not to do the mural in the end because it was so out of line with their own beliefs. These two vignettes of the artists and their funding in the Depression fascinated me and feels like a lot more to dive into historically here. Hope these lengthy posts aren't too rambling and add to the discussion! <3
I watched that episode of Mad Men with my mom and she gasped and had me re-wind and watch it again, it brought back so many memories of eating in the park when she was a kid and doing the exact same thing, just tossing the napkins on the ground and walking away (she was born in 1958, Philadelphia).
Such an enlightening episode to think about how we participate in society and “choosing your battles” in certain ways. I was thinking about a lot of these topics in the past few days.
Tony’s Chocolonely chocolates has been scrutinized because of a company they partner with in their supply chain but they have addressed it as working from within to create change. But they still have made a HUGE impact on the cocoa farmers they work with and addressed other ethical concerns in the usual chocolate industry.
I was also telling my husband that I did not realize how vast AWS span was in the day to day of the internet, and hearing the stats just made me think that cutting out a prime subscription doesn’t do much in the grand scheme of things given they profit more from me using other online platforms. It’s like a game you cant win, so you just need to survive through.
ETA: my big sellout brand would probably be Coca cola or Haagen Daaz, as of recent I can add Bottega Veneta 😂
lol pray tell Katie, *which* Slovenian philosopher?
It pains me as a 90s kid who grew up in the NYC skater scene to know that Gen X evolved into the generation that overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
We formed a collective identity as modeled by Cobain, Kathleen Hanna, Sonic Youth, Harmony Korine, Donna Tartt & other Gen X indie icons. We were self-righteously iconoclastic & devoted to our mistrust of anything that hit the zeitgeist, including the aforementioned artists. Consumption was anathema to our ethos in direct response to the excesses of the previous decade.
I can’t venture to posit exactly where my generation sold out but I would argue that as a collective we sold out everything that we once held dear. Our pious culture of being anti-everything was probably summed up best by Fiona Apple’s acceptance speech at the 1997 MTV video music awards:
“This world is bullshit. And you shouldn’t model your life about what you think that we think is cool and what we’re wearing and what we’re saying and everything. Go with yourself. Go with yourself…And it’s just stupid that I’m in this world, but you’re all very cool to me so thank you very much. And I’m sorry for all the people that I didn’t thank, but man… it’s good. Bye.”
https://youtu.be/RVHQJlogH0k
I just watched The White House Effect which gives a bit of history about policy and messaging and how it’s changed around global warming. There’s an interview with a guy waiting in line for gas during the 70’s energy crisis who suggests that everyone stop everything, put their cars in the garage and stay home. The interviewer asks “why aren’t you doing that?” And the guy says “cuz no one else is.” Social contracts and messaging play such a big part in our habits of consumption, especially now that we have access to so much information. There’s a cognitive dissonance to justify our habits of consumption; I often hear friends guiltily explain they bought something from SHEIN. But we’re also conditioned to keep consuming to keep the capitalist wheels of justice turning or the whole system will fall apart and we’ll lose everything. Some of you bbs might not remember, but after 9-11 the message was to keep shopping (to fight terrorism? lol) Even during these recent BDS movements, people were boycotting Target for removing DEI initiatives but were shifting their shopping to other retailers like Amazon or Costco (folks were literally urging people to “support” Costco and their pro DEI stance by spending money there all while their employees were getting ready to strike) rather than refusing to consume altogether. There’s been a growing movement for economic black outs, but can we (or at least 30% of us) really all go ONE DAY without consumption?