Hey so I felt extremely uncomfortable at the beginning of this episode and then it really clicked for me when we got towards the end and you pointed out that if these women do in fact have eating disorders, then why are we viewing that with such contempt? (Paraphrasing here) Going to bravely admit here that I’ve been doing that a whole lot with not just celebrities that I don’t like but also people in my social circle that I don’t like, and I am now extremely uncomfortable with that version of myself.
I remember on the reunion of season 2 of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives (also a passion of Caro’s I believe) Layla said that when she hears someone express concern about her weight, the sickest part of her brain is really happy with that. That is the first time I realized the way I have been talking about this may not be the most helpful. And then to hear that before/after photos is not a trauma informed way of talking about this - seems so obvious now but I didn’t know that at all.
Although I’m probably not going to stop telling my sons that they are beautiful beautiful boys. Lock me up!!
If it makes you feel better this project has made me pretty much perpetually uncomfortable with myself for a million different reasons from the jump, so right there with you ❤️
I’m 42 minutes in but as a fat lady, one concrete thing that has changed since 2020-2022 is the amount of plus size options. Pretty much all big brands that did offer any plus options (the minority by far of brands) have shrunk their offerings since then and so many smaller brands that offered plus options have closed amid tariffs. It is measurably harder to find fashionable clothing as a fat woman than 2-3 years ago!
I've had a really difficult time listening to this episode. Mostly, I didn't quite understand where we were going. It seems like where Caro really wanted to land was at the conclusion around being 'womaned', specifically for famous people. And I can see that and understand and agree: the idea that women are (unfairly) more deeply scrutinized than men is pretty Basic Feminism.
Some of the treatment around EDs and bodies made me extremely uncomfortable. I feel like there was an equalizing of how AG (or similar famous women) is currently being treated with how fat women are treated by our society. And I am just shook by this. Of course, in a utopia, neither the social media speculation over celebs nor the rampant discrimination against fat people would exist. But I think it's important to stay grounded in the reality that the experience of being a non-famous fat person who is openly hated by our entire society just for existing is a much more common one, and therefore quantitatively, much more devastating. I feel the harm of the rise of GLP-1s is two fold: 1) their side effects remain understudied so their danger persists and 2) we're promoting a medicine that effectively messages to fat people, "here's a drug so we can work on wiping out people like you." The problem isn't any single person choosing to use this medication. Overall, women are *not* critiqued for being too thin anywhere near the rate they are critiqued for being fat. I understand the goal is to distance ourselves from body as value entirely, but presenting these forms of discrimination together is a false equivalency.
Overall, I just don't think how we treat immensely rich and famous women is all that important in the project of feminism. I have so much respect for Caro and Katie, and maybe this episode just isn't for me.
Thanks for this, Meg- I appreciate your note, and want to state unequivocally that i agree with your notes about skinny privilege, and i by no means think its an “equal burden” to bear, in terms of body shame between thin and fat people in our society and the resulting consequences of that shame, so thanks for bringing it up and for giving me to opportunity to clarify.
The only part of your comment I disagree with is in the relative importance of how we treat rich and famous women in the project of feminism. I personally think it’s hugely important, as our treatment of them is only ever a mirror or projection for our treatment of one another. But I know that’s a topic of contention among feminists and did expect some people to disagree!
I had some similar thoughts while listening, thank you for articulating yours so well.
While I do agree with a lot of what Caro was saying, I found myself thinking that the point that was being missed is that society tells fat people they shouldn’t exist at all. I struggled with the simplistic over view of the body positive movement as basically a marketing tool. Because while that’s not wrong, being in my 20s during that era was the first time I felt that maybe my body was “allowed to exist”.
Overall I really enjoyed the episode and didn't outright disagree with things, just felt something missing with the other side of the coin.
A somewhat related thought: it’s interesting to think about how celebs using GLP1s said (and I paraphrase) that they are just using them to get to the weight they feel most comfortable with. And you can’t help but wonder if the comfort comes because they are experiencing thin privilege, not because of how they are actually experiencing moving and existing in their bodies.
Yes, excellent points! I completely agree that thinness has always been the gold standard, but there was the tiniest sliver of time when we were seeing other bodies. I believe in fat liberation and the structural changes that demands, but if the choice is between seeing a small number of plus size bodies in ads or fashion shows vs. not seeing them at all, then yes I'm going to pick the Dove ad. Capitalism for all, baby!
I am still struggling to articulate why this episode was a tough one for me. I’ve been both very skinny and very fat in my body, with disordered eating at various intensities in my life. My ED was triggered again about a year or two ago when the rise of heroine chic returned.
At my sickest, I am complimented. If I can’t eat for days, I get told how amazing I look. Commenting on someone being fat is not the same as watching underweight bodies worshipped again. Being fat is constantly shamed, being skinny is rewarded.
It had changed for a while and it was meaningful. If it wasn’t, why are fascists bringing it back? Because it benefits fascists when women spend so much time obsessing about their weight they can’t focus on anything else.
Lastly, “are they experiencing thin privilege or enjoying being in their body again?” - I wish this was also explored. If one of the most powerful woman in the world is using thinness, whiteness, and blondness to maintain dominance in a system that rewards it… what do we call that?
Hello! Love the podcast. I’m a PhD Clinical Psychologist, and I study environmental influences on brain development so a lot of this was very up my alley! A few comments to add to the conversation.
First, some good news which is that the field is aware of the problems with including BMI as a diagnostic criteria, and are actively considering updates to the next version of the DSM which would remove those criteria and change how we classify severity: https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm/proposed-changes
Another point I want to make is regarding the biopsychosocial discussion. (Edited comment to make this shorter): Although eating disorders (especially AN) have strong heritable and biological components, this does not mean they are biologically deterministic or unaffected by environment. As with PTSD, many people experience severe trauma, yet only a subset develop the disorder, reflecting interactions among biological vulnerability, psychological resilience, and social context; but still, the triggering experience (trauma) is KEY to them developing PTSD in the first place.
Same can probably be said for eating disorders; the daughter of an “Almond Mom” inherits a set of genes that may make her at risk for developing an eating disorder, but this is NOT necessarily deterministic. Maybe if we took that same daughter with those same genes and raised her in another household with different eating habits, or surrounded her with a body positive friend group, she would never develop an eating disorder. We simply don’t know; for some folks, biological predisposition is very strong, while for others, their risk for psychopathology is more environmentally dependent. This is a concept known as “equifinality.”
Biology and environment interact reciprocally across our lifespans such that psychopathology reflects probabilistic (not inevitable) outcomes, rather than a single predetermined pathway. Lots of ways for people to arrive at the same diagnosis!
Thank you for saying this. Absolutely seeing the praise of skinny bodies is part of the “social” in biopsychosocial that can influence and contribute to eating disorders!
It’s me!! Coffee and biopsychosocial girl! I started crying at defying gravity and cried all throughout, but the ending…this is a piece of art. Bravo Caro. I’m honored to add to the conversation and in awe of you and the work you put in. Thank you for doing this.
The book “The Body is Not an Apology” and so much of the Disability Justice discourse (see Alice Wong’s work, RIP) helped me grow to love my sick, disabled body both when I was severely underweight due to physical illness and then when I gained a lot of weight from the steroids used to finally manage my symptoms/improve my quality of life. What a trip is was to be complimented when I was skinny but sick compared to when I was well but larger.
The listener comment from the skinnytok episode has blown my mind open, I had an ED throughout my teens and twenties - nothing has ever made more sense to me holy shit
Florence Pugh was in a really intriguing film called “the wonder” which is about a young girl who presumably has an eating disorder and is passing it off as religious fasting!
I could say a lot of things but I’ll just add one thought I’ve been having recently: As someone with a history of disordered eating, the absolute vitriol being directed towards Ariana Grande and the disgust - dare I say loathing (wicked reference, I couldn’t help myself) - with which people are talking about this right now has been FAR more harmful to my psyche than watching skinny people on TV. Thank you for a wonderful episode, as always.
Super interesting! I loved the episode, especially the powerful message that wrapped it up. What I could not help but think in the early part of the episode before I was entirely sure of where it was going was that disordered eating was not addressed. In my mind there is a spectrum of relationships with food, your body, control, and how that relates to our social constructs. It isn't simply that you either have anorexia nervosa or you don't and have a "healthy" relationship with food and your body. Anorexia falls onto the spectrum of a DSM diagnosis that includes a legitimate imbalance in your brain chemistry. I would say disordered eating is MUCH more prevalent and falls in to a realm that is much more influenced by popular culture. It feels like an oversimplification to say that celebrities have little impact on diet and body culture because true anorexia is not likely influenced by it when disordered eating is really prevalent and seems to be largely driven by cultural examples and pressure to fit in to a specific body profile. This is very different than genetic and chemical predisposition to a condition like anorexia and is what I think most people are concerned about when they talk about the examples set by extremely thin celebrities.
That doesn't mean that an argument should be made for commenting on the bodies of anybody, celebrities included, or that critiquing someone that may have an true eating disorder is beneficial to anyone, but I think that disordered eating and the profound impact it has on so many people, especially women, should be addressed. I myself am tall and matured fast as a teenager. I remember how self conscious I was about the weight I gained during puberty and going on a crash diet more than once where I ate 500 calories per day for a couple of months so that my body would look more like it "should" according to what society was telling me. It was a positive feedback loop- everyone told me how great I looked and it reinforced the social standard I was trying to achieve. This story is nearly ubiquitous amongst women and adolescents. No, I did not have a true eating disorder. I was trying to mimic the examples surrounding me in magazines, in movies and TV shows, from the pop stars I idolized at the time. That is the root of the issue more than the separate and more rare case of a true ED.
I was hoping someone would express this eloquently, thank you!
Just chiming in that I agree, I remember growing up I'd always feel bad about how lowrise jeans looked on my (perfectly natural and honestly very slim) teen body, and hearing about celebrities' weights without even knowing that I should contextualise it with height. I think that sort of discourse is harmful, and "having the same standards but talking about it better" is still progress if young women hear more loudly that they are allowed to eat and exercise for strength and have a variety of bone structures.
By halfway through the episode I did understand this conversation isn't about me and other people who have always been straight sized, and I don't mean to shoehorn my own experience in. But there's still a world of difference between "heroine chic" and magazines telling you to drink lemon juice for 3 days before a big event to look your best, and the era where athletes are on magazine covers with visible shoulders and thighs and when I shop for a bikini I can sometimes, if I'm lucky, see a model not wearing the XS
I appreciate the overall message and I'll think twice about where our collective energy is going, especially when it's not focusing on the absolute TALENT that I agree those two women have. And I definitely agree that things being bad re: beauty standards now doesn't mean there was some halcyon era previously where fat people could exist unbothered by those standards. I think we should listen to fat people and what they need and want. I think maybe what didn't land with me was saying this as a response to people like Jameela Jamil describing something that to me is a slightly different and also true issue
Being diagnosed with ovarian cancer this year and feeling this sudden pressure from outsiders to assign this to my lifestyle and eating habits (sorry, it's literally genetic), now being in remission but on daily medications which leave me chronically anemic, being reminded daily to "eat healthy" and exercise but feeling like I'm failing when I'm too tired, and feeling like my body has betrayed me and that the only way to take control of this situation is to punish it because there's no way to punish the universe, but that I should also model a positive attitude, to fight, to be brave, because otherwise I'm doing it wrong, and maybe when I have that preventative double mastectomy, I should also have reconstructive surgery to make it look less like I'm trying not to die of cancer and more like I'm still a brave woman, still feminine, even though I no longer have a uterus, and aren't I going to grow out my post-chemo hair so that it can be long and a symbol of my power and my strength and on and on and on.... The idea of having control over my body is so pervasive and the mental mosaic of this manifesting in a host of disorders which I never honestly examine brought me to tears as I listened today. Phenomenal work as always Caro.
Also, Katie, I'm so excited to see puppy posts. Might I recommend the book "Plenty in Life is Free" by Kathy Sdao (applied animal behaviorist) who suggests that "What if the secret to great dog training is to be a frequent "feeder" rather than a strong leader? A skilled reinforcer rather than a strict enforcer?" Somehow this seems applicable to this conversation.
As someone with different health issues but who has gone through all of the stages of grief around my body - the way you articulated that feeling of having somehow done it to ourselves and failing when you can’t keep up with eating healthy or exercising (especially on the days when getting out of bed are a struggle) 🥹
Thank you for sharing your experience and sending you all the well wishes in both life and on your healing journey.
I am trying to organize my thoughts in response to the episode but they are still a bit muddled. I appreciate the points about being women'd and the unhelpfulness of body commentary. However, I found there to be one glaring omission: the idea that disordered eating is a spectrum with clinical anorexia as one extreme. I take the point that perhaps social media hasn't increased the clinical cases of anorexia. That said, I found the Caro was so focused on clinical anorexia that (to me) it felt like you were drawing a line where you either have a clinical eating disorder or you are "normal". Every woman I know has struggled with a form of disordered eating and very few would be clinically diagnosed. And to say that disordered eating (as a full spectrum) has not been spread by traditional media and amplified by social media, feels like asking me to ignore my eyes. I really struggled to connect with the overarching points because of this tension. I haven't fleshed out a lot of these thoughts but appreciate your always thought-provoking episodes!
Fat woman here! I so appreciate how you guys handle every topic you cover and this is no exception. Thank you for all of the research and deep care you put into your work.
Caro, your episodes build to such a crescendo that I will often find myself sitting in parking space or standing outside just replaying the last 5-10 minutes over again to make sure I fully appreciate what you’re saying. I mean it sincerely when I say that, at your best, you really do manage to elevate a conversational podcast into a thematic art form. Even when I’ve picked at some of your conclusions (or, priors), I’ve been consistently impressed, as I was confident I would be way-back-when, in your critical evolution. I once referred to a Caro-rant as your “Lebron in Game 1 of the 2018 Finals aka the best game every played,” but this closing monologue was even better. If this was your last episode as lead in 2025, you went full-send. Props, flowers, etc.
Wanted to note that Cynthia Erivo is not the first black woman to play Elphaba—there have been others who understudied to the role across the globe. Though Broadway did not cast its first principal black Elphaba until March of this year.
Might have already been discussed but one thing I also noticed about the first video played is that the woman mentioned she wants people to be able to have healthy babies twice. Made me think of the pronatalist angle of the whole thing. These are two women who do not have children, and it’s pretty sick to use a complication of eating disorders (amenorrhea) to assign amorality because they are assumed to be preventing themselves from becoming pregnant.
Hey so I felt extremely uncomfortable at the beginning of this episode and then it really clicked for me when we got towards the end and you pointed out that if these women do in fact have eating disorders, then why are we viewing that with such contempt? (Paraphrasing here) Going to bravely admit here that I’ve been doing that a whole lot with not just celebrities that I don’t like but also people in my social circle that I don’t like, and I am now extremely uncomfortable with that version of myself.
I remember on the reunion of season 2 of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives (also a passion of Caro’s I believe) Layla said that when she hears someone express concern about her weight, the sickest part of her brain is really happy with that. That is the first time I realized the way I have been talking about this may not be the most helpful. And then to hear that before/after photos is not a trauma informed way of talking about this - seems so obvious now but I didn’t know that at all.
Although I’m probably not going to stop telling my sons that they are beautiful beautiful boys. Lock me up!!
If it makes you feel better this project has made me pretty much perpetually uncomfortable with myself for a million different reasons from the jump, so right there with you ❤️
I’m 42 minutes in but as a fat lady, one concrete thing that has changed since 2020-2022 is the amount of plus size options. Pretty much all big brands that did offer any plus options (the minority by far of brands) have shrunk their offerings since then and so many smaller brands that offered plus options have closed amid tariffs. It is measurably harder to find fashionable clothing as a fat woman than 2-3 years ago!
Hard agree. Buying clothes in person as a plus sized pregnant person is so hard!!
I've had a really difficult time listening to this episode. Mostly, I didn't quite understand where we were going. It seems like where Caro really wanted to land was at the conclusion around being 'womaned', specifically for famous people. And I can see that and understand and agree: the idea that women are (unfairly) more deeply scrutinized than men is pretty Basic Feminism.
Some of the treatment around EDs and bodies made me extremely uncomfortable. I feel like there was an equalizing of how AG (or similar famous women) is currently being treated with how fat women are treated by our society. And I am just shook by this. Of course, in a utopia, neither the social media speculation over celebs nor the rampant discrimination against fat people would exist. But I think it's important to stay grounded in the reality that the experience of being a non-famous fat person who is openly hated by our entire society just for existing is a much more common one, and therefore quantitatively, much more devastating. I feel the harm of the rise of GLP-1s is two fold: 1) their side effects remain understudied so their danger persists and 2) we're promoting a medicine that effectively messages to fat people, "here's a drug so we can work on wiping out people like you." The problem isn't any single person choosing to use this medication. Overall, women are *not* critiqued for being too thin anywhere near the rate they are critiqued for being fat. I understand the goal is to distance ourselves from body as value entirely, but presenting these forms of discrimination together is a false equivalency.
Overall, I just don't think how we treat immensely rich and famous women is all that important in the project of feminism. I have so much respect for Caro and Katie, and maybe this episode just isn't for me.
Thanks for this, Meg- I appreciate your note, and want to state unequivocally that i agree with your notes about skinny privilege, and i by no means think its an “equal burden” to bear, in terms of body shame between thin and fat people in our society and the resulting consequences of that shame, so thanks for bringing it up and for giving me to opportunity to clarify.
The only part of your comment I disagree with is in the relative importance of how we treat rich and famous women in the project of feminism. I personally think it’s hugely important, as our treatment of them is only ever a mirror or projection for our treatment of one another. But I know that’s a topic of contention among feminists and did expect some people to disagree!
I had some similar thoughts while listening, thank you for articulating yours so well.
While I do agree with a lot of what Caro was saying, I found myself thinking that the point that was being missed is that society tells fat people they shouldn’t exist at all. I struggled with the simplistic over view of the body positive movement as basically a marketing tool. Because while that’s not wrong, being in my 20s during that era was the first time I felt that maybe my body was “allowed to exist”.
Overall I really enjoyed the episode and didn't outright disagree with things, just felt something missing with the other side of the coin.
A somewhat related thought: it’s interesting to think about how celebs using GLP1s said (and I paraphrase) that they are just using them to get to the weight they feel most comfortable with. And you can’t help but wonder if the comfort comes because they are experiencing thin privilege, not because of how they are actually experiencing moving and existing in their bodies.
Yes, excellent points! I completely agree that thinness has always been the gold standard, but there was the tiniest sliver of time when we were seeing other bodies. I believe in fat liberation and the structural changes that demands, but if the choice is between seeing a small number of plus size bodies in ads or fashion shows vs. not seeing them at all, then yes I'm going to pick the Dove ad. Capitalism for all, baby!
I am still struggling to articulate why this episode was a tough one for me. I’ve been both very skinny and very fat in my body, with disordered eating at various intensities in my life. My ED was triggered again about a year or two ago when the rise of heroine chic returned.
At my sickest, I am complimented. If I can’t eat for days, I get told how amazing I look. Commenting on someone being fat is not the same as watching underweight bodies worshipped again. Being fat is constantly shamed, being skinny is rewarded.
It had changed for a while and it was meaningful. If it wasn’t, why are fascists bringing it back? Because it benefits fascists when women spend so much time obsessing about their weight they can’t focus on anything else.
Lastly, “are they experiencing thin privilege or enjoying being in their body again?” - I wish this was also explored. If one of the most powerful woman in the world is using thinness, whiteness, and blondness to maintain dominance in a system that rewards it… what do we call that?
I really hear this and connect with it, Crystal. Thinking of you 💜
Hello! Love the podcast. I’m a PhD Clinical Psychologist, and I study environmental influences on brain development so a lot of this was very up my alley! A few comments to add to the conversation.
First, some good news which is that the field is aware of the problems with including BMI as a diagnostic criteria, and are actively considering updates to the next version of the DSM which would remove those criteria and change how we classify severity: https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm/proposed-changes
Another point I want to make is regarding the biopsychosocial discussion. (Edited comment to make this shorter): Although eating disorders (especially AN) have strong heritable and biological components, this does not mean they are biologically deterministic or unaffected by environment. As with PTSD, many people experience severe trauma, yet only a subset develop the disorder, reflecting interactions among biological vulnerability, psychological resilience, and social context; but still, the triggering experience (trauma) is KEY to them developing PTSD in the first place.
Same can probably be said for eating disorders; the daughter of an “Almond Mom” inherits a set of genes that may make her at risk for developing an eating disorder, but this is NOT necessarily deterministic. Maybe if we took that same daughter with those same genes and raised her in another household with different eating habits, or surrounded her with a body positive friend group, she would never develop an eating disorder. We simply don’t know; for some folks, biological predisposition is very strong, while for others, their risk for psychopathology is more environmentally dependent. This is a concept known as “equifinality.”
Biology and environment interact reciprocally across our lifespans such that psychopathology reflects probabilistic (not inevitable) outcomes, rather than a single predetermined pathway. Lots of ways for people to arrive at the same diagnosis!
we love clinical psychologist queens
We love Diabolical Lies!! :)
Thank you for saying this. Absolutely seeing the praise of skinny bodies is part of the “social” in biopsychosocial that can influence and contribute to eating disorders!
It’s me!! Coffee and biopsychosocial girl! I started crying at defying gravity and cried all throughout, but the ending…this is a piece of art. Bravo Caro. I’m honored to add to the conversation and in awe of you and the work you put in. Thank you for doing this.
The book “The Body is Not an Apology” and so much of the Disability Justice discourse (see Alice Wong’s work, RIP) helped me grow to love my sick, disabled body both when I was severely underweight due to physical illness and then when I gained a lot of weight from the steroids used to finally manage my symptoms/improve my quality of life. What a trip is was to be complimented when I was skinny but sick compared to when I was well but larger.
Suggested reading (if you’re interested):
- the body is not an apology
- Disability Visibility
- Care work: Dreaming disability justice
- Love activism
The listener comment from the skinnytok episode has blown my mind open, I had an ED throughout my teens and twenties - nothing has ever made more sense to me holy shit
Florence Pugh was in a really intriguing film called “the wonder” which is about a young girl who presumably has an eating disorder and is passing it off as religious fasting!
Incredible film AND based on a true story! I just couldn’t fit it all into one convo lol but I read about it and it’s fascinating
This film is soo good
I could say a lot of things but I’ll just add one thought I’ve been having recently: As someone with a history of disordered eating, the absolute vitriol being directed towards Ariana Grande and the disgust - dare I say loathing (wicked reference, I couldn’t help myself) - with which people are talking about this right now has been FAR more harmful to my psyche than watching skinny people on TV. Thank you for a wonderful episode, as always.
Super interesting! I loved the episode, especially the powerful message that wrapped it up. What I could not help but think in the early part of the episode before I was entirely sure of where it was going was that disordered eating was not addressed. In my mind there is a spectrum of relationships with food, your body, control, and how that relates to our social constructs. It isn't simply that you either have anorexia nervosa or you don't and have a "healthy" relationship with food and your body. Anorexia falls onto the spectrum of a DSM diagnosis that includes a legitimate imbalance in your brain chemistry. I would say disordered eating is MUCH more prevalent and falls in to a realm that is much more influenced by popular culture. It feels like an oversimplification to say that celebrities have little impact on diet and body culture because true anorexia is not likely influenced by it when disordered eating is really prevalent and seems to be largely driven by cultural examples and pressure to fit in to a specific body profile. This is very different than genetic and chemical predisposition to a condition like anorexia and is what I think most people are concerned about when they talk about the examples set by extremely thin celebrities.
That doesn't mean that an argument should be made for commenting on the bodies of anybody, celebrities included, or that critiquing someone that may have an true eating disorder is beneficial to anyone, but I think that disordered eating and the profound impact it has on so many people, especially women, should be addressed. I myself am tall and matured fast as a teenager. I remember how self conscious I was about the weight I gained during puberty and going on a crash diet more than once where I ate 500 calories per day for a couple of months so that my body would look more like it "should" according to what society was telling me. It was a positive feedback loop- everyone told me how great I looked and it reinforced the social standard I was trying to achieve. This story is nearly ubiquitous amongst women and adolescents. No, I did not have a true eating disorder. I was trying to mimic the examples surrounding me in magazines, in movies and TV shows, from the pop stars I idolized at the time. That is the root of the issue more than the separate and more rare case of a true ED.
I was hoping someone would express this eloquently, thank you!
Just chiming in that I agree, I remember growing up I'd always feel bad about how lowrise jeans looked on my (perfectly natural and honestly very slim) teen body, and hearing about celebrities' weights without even knowing that I should contextualise it with height. I think that sort of discourse is harmful, and "having the same standards but talking about it better" is still progress if young women hear more loudly that they are allowed to eat and exercise for strength and have a variety of bone structures.
By halfway through the episode I did understand this conversation isn't about me and other people who have always been straight sized, and I don't mean to shoehorn my own experience in. But there's still a world of difference between "heroine chic" and magazines telling you to drink lemon juice for 3 days before a big event to look your best, and the era where athletes are on magazine covers with visible shoulders and thighs and when I shop for a bikini I can sometimes, if I'm lucky, see a model not wearing the XS
I appreciate the overall message and I'll think twice about where our collective energy is going, especially when it's not focusing on the absolute TALENT that I agree those two women have. And I definitely agree that things being bad re: beauty standards now doesn't mean there was some halcyon era previously where fat people could exist unbothered by those standards. I think we should listen to fat people and what they need and want. I think maybe what didn't land with me was saying this as a response to people like Jameela Jamil describing something that to me is a slightly different and also true issue
Being diagnosed with ovarian cancer this year and feeling this sudden pressure from outsiders to assign this to my lifestyle and eating habits (sorry, it's literally genetic), now being in remission but on daily medications which leave me chronically anemic, being reminded daily to "eat healthy" and exercise but feeling like I'm failing when I'm too tired, and feeling like my body has betrayed me and that the only way to take control of this situation is to punish it because there's no way to punish the universe, but that I should also model a positive attitude, to fight, to be brave, because otherwise I'm doing it wrong, and maybe when I have that preventative double mastectomy, I should also have reconstructive surgery to make it look less like I'm trying not to die of cancer and more like I'm still a brave woman, still feminine, even though I no longer have a uterus, and aren't I going to grow out my post-chemo hair so that it can be long and a symbol of my power and my strength and on and on and on.... The idea of having control over my body is so pervasive and the mental mosaic of this manifesting in a host of disorders which I never honestly examine brought me to tears as I listened today. Phenomenal work as always Caro.
Also, Katie, I'm so excited to see puppy posts. Might I recommend the book "Plenty in Life is Free" by Kathy Sdao (applied animal behaviorist) who suggests that "What if the secret to great dog training is to be a frequent "feeder" rather than a strong leader? A skilled reinforcer rather than a strict enforcer?" Somehow this seems applicable to this conversation.
As someone with different health issues but who has gone through all of the stages of grief around my body - the way you articulated that feeling of having somehow done it to ourselves and failing when you can’t keep up with eating healthy or exercising (especially on the days when getting out of bed are a struggle) 🥹
Thank you for sharing your experience and sending you all the well wishes in both life and on your healing journey.
I am trying to organize my thoughts in response to the episode but they are still a bit muddled. I appreciate the points about being women'd and the unhelpfulness of body commentary. However, I found there to be one glaring omission: the idea that disordered eating is a spectrum with clinical anorexia as one extreme. I take the point that perhaps social media hasn't increased the clinical cases of anorexia. That said, I found the Caro was so focused on clinical anorexia that (to me) it felt like you were drawing a line where you either have a clinical eating disorder or you are "normal". Every woman I know has struggled with a form of disordered eating and very few would be clinically diagnosed. And to say that disordered eating (as a full spectrum) has not been spread by traditional media and amplified by social media, feels like asking me to ignore my eyes. I really struggled to connect with the overarching points because of this tension. I haven't fleshed out a lot of these thoughts but appreciate your always thought-provoking episodes!
Fat woman here! I so appreciate how you guys handle every topic you cover and this is no exception. Thank you for all of the research and deep care you put into your work.
Caro, your episodes build to such a crescendo that I will often find myself sitting in parking space or standing outside just replaying the last 5-10 minutes over again to make sure I fully appreciate what you’re saying. I mean it sincerely when I say that, at your best, you really do manage to elevate a conversational podcast into a thematic art form. Even when I’ve picked at some of your conclusions (or, priors), I’ve been consistently impressed, as I was confident I would be way-back-when, in your critical evolution. I once referred to a Caro-rant as your “Lebron in Game 1 of the 2018 Finals aka the best game every played,” but this closing monologue was even better. If this was your last episode as lead in 2025, you went full-send. Props, flowers, etc.
this means a lot, PC
of course! artistic exceptionalism should always be noted!
ps. PhD-level remarks in the comments section... read on-air... something to aspire to on both accounts :)
Wanted to note that Cynthia Erivo is not the first black woman to play Elphaba—there have been others who understudied to the role across the globe. Though Broadway did not cast its first principal black Elphaba until March of this year.
(I have thought about Wicked every day of my life for like 15 years)
Might have already been discussed but one thing I also noticed about the first video played is that the woman mentioned she wants people to be able to have healthy babies twice. Made me think of the pronatalist angle of the whole thing. These are two women who do not have children, and it’s pretty sick to use a complication of eating disorders (amenorrhea) to assign amorality because they are assumed to be preventing themselves from becoming pregnant.