As an Indian woman who grew up in America and is not Hindu, Usha’s little splainer on how they have supposedly exposed her children to both cultures stopped me in my tracks. My Indian parents raised me to be atheist and we still celebrate Diwali and other regional holidays like Pongal and Independence Day. Diwali is such an ingrained part of our culture that my friends and in laws also celebrate with us. So the fact that they don’t celebrate any Indian holidays is a dead giveaway that Indian culture has been effectively erased from their lives.
I loved this episode, and I want to stay that even hearing all of this I don’t feel a lot of empathy for Usha in part because of the above. She has simultaneously managed to perpetuate the vilest facets of Brahmin/Indian wealth culture in this political landscape and also has somehow turned her back on that culture. I also have a different view of her political journey. I agree she is remarkably accomplished and clearly intelligent but there’s a way of looking at her career as calculated to end up exactly where she is - at the top of a group who values wealth above all. I also want to point out that Melania genuinely doesn’t give a fuck about anything, but Usha is out there trying her level best to be relevant. Maybe she got more than she bargained but I feel like her end game was a cynical play for political power.
Anyways in the words of Michael Jordan…as another Indian woman who is a lawyer married to a white man with interracial children and extremely successful parents who are free babysitters…..I took that personally 😂
I have been writing about this in unhinged comments in the chat since yesterday. Like her path is the same as Harris ffs! She chose to embrace what she clearly sees as the Brahmins of the west.
Indian culture is celebrating everything being celebrated around you. You will see Hindus making Eid party plans. Muslims wanting to go play garba. Everyone bursting enough crackers to destroy the worlds aqi index as the goal. If you are an atheist you still go meet family and friends in shiny clothing on those days.
If you have an Indian family and they have seen NO Indian festivals, that takes active rejection of your heritage. I mean the White House has a Diwali party ffs!
she is smarter than Vance and I am now wondering if it’s her hard work and goals that got him here. How does he even get the connections he does without her?
Okay I am going full conspiracy theory galaxy brain now and I’m going to stop because her evil this isn’t the point of this episode.
Yeeeeees! Fuckit, let's go full on conspiracy theory. Caro, I am a massive fan and firmly believe you speak the God's honest truth no matter what you're talking about. But I was struck by your generous reading of Usha. I want to be an ally, truly I do, but I also think we can't just assume that she is the poor wittle oppressed wife just because, Sisterhood. (Also because JD is so vile he naturally gives us all the ICK already...) But if Usha is really so brilliant and JD is really so mid, isn't there just the tiniest chance that she might actually be the one running the show? She clerked for Roberts and then Kavanaugh FFS- not exactly bastions of liberal thought. Maybe it was Usha grabbed those coattails? Maybe it was Usha that hitched JD's train to the Trumpwagon? I need to go and watch her interviews myself and maybe I'll feel differently but still... @caro, you said that she was playing the long game and coulda made it to the Supreme Court - look where they are now! No long game needed. She's Second Lady and is THIS CLOSE to becoming First Lady. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a judgement about her being evil. It's about agency. Why do we think that Rama has agency and Usha doesn't? Does a woman only get to have agency if her husband allows it? If that is true, then heterosexuality truly is a tragedy. I want to think that Usha has agency and has simply made choices 'we' (feminists?) don't approve of. And so we have to blame her horrible husband and make it his fault.
And the fourth pregnancy, what if it was her deciding that JD Vance’s political career will be finished if he left his pregnant wife for Erika Kirk?
And the whole they don’t do hindu festivals, no way a religious paati from Andhra Pradesh is baby sitting these kids and not doing traditions with them. It’s impossible. The pope not believing in Jesus levels of impossible.
As I think deeper, this is her act, In my opinion. Keep displaying that he makes the decisions and she is keeping the narratives straight and “acceptable”. This is her performing whiteness to the republican base. Noo my kids have no influence at all from brownness!
I think all of this is SO interesting. I am insanely curious about the 4th pregnancy and we’ll probably never really know what happened there, but I find it fascinating that it immediately clicked (clocked??) to us Indian lefties here that everything Usha and Vance are doing here is completely in line with Brahmin culture. I do think that it’s impossible to understand Usha without understanding caste and its atrocities.
Like I am from a Brahmin family. I know exactly where she is coming from and there is no way In hell the whiteness performance of the children isn’t a deliberate attempt. Unlike Harris, she isn’t from a mixed heritage. Which means for her to have not influenced at them all, it’s her consciously and calculatedly raising them and keeping herself from getting in the way of their ability to rise in the social hierarchy. Because after all brahminism is correct. But to be a Brahmin in the US is to be rich, white, Christian and powerful. And she knows, her conversion means nothing. Vivek Ramaswamy’s judeo Christian hindutva nonsense was profoundly rejected by the base she wants to have hierarchy over. But if she raised good little catholic children despite her brownness, then obviously they will have to see her as the exception. She wants to be their token brown person they can wave around to say see we aren’t racist. If you assimilate we will totally accept you as our own.
This is the game Brahmins played when they got into the colonial administrative services. We are very good at social hierarchy and how to be “not the ruling class”, avoiding culpability and saying we were on the right side all along.
“This is the game Brahmins played when they got into the colonial administrative services. We are very good at social hierarchy and how to be “not the ruling class”, avoiding culpability and saying we were on the right side all along.” 100%!!
The piece I can’t fully understand (other than the 4th pregnancy) is why she just hasn’t converted to Catholicism yet. Would love to hear your thoughts on that!
Take this with a grain of salt, but I did see a TikTok clip where someone who worked at a restaurant in DC mentioned that the VP and Usha were in a fight where she was begging him not to peruse the presidency because so many people openly dislike them. Obviously I can't validate this because TikTok, but it would not surprise me given that their family seems to get booed everywhere they go. This feels more plausible than the idea that she is pulling the string behind the scenes.
“It's about agency. Why do we think that Rama has agency and Usha doesn't? Does a woman only get to have agency if her husband allows it? If that is true, then heterosexuality truly is a tragedy. I want to think that Usha has agency and has simply made choices 'we' (feminists?) don't approve of. And so we have to blame her horrible husband and make it his fault.” 🔥
I mean being a member of the Brahmin class may still give her a lot of connections, even in the US. Context for readers who aren't from Indian or Indian-American families: Brahmin is the highest caste in the Indian class system. While caste-based discrimination is banned in India by law, I think it's important context to know that being of that class likely gives her access to beneficial relationships, in the same way being upper-class in the US gives someone access to certain people, even though people of all classes can apply to the same schools and jobs.
Thank you for sharing your experience and observations. I was curious about Usha from a more intersectional lens so was pleased to glean some insight via your comment.
I am married to a non-religious immigrant from Iran and the non acknowledgement of Diwali stood out to me. I know it’s ultimately tied to religion, but all of my non-religious Indian friends celebrate it culturally. I equated it to the Persian celebration of Nowruz (which, to be fair, is a genuinely non-religious holiday <roots in ancient religion acknowledged>). again, different cultures and different situations, but struck me as bizarre that they don’t seem to celebrate any Indian holidays? I’m not even the Persian one in my marriage, but I’ve gone through great lengths to ensure my son has exposure to that part of his heritage?? feels like mutual support of each others’ cultures should be part of the package when you marry someone outside of your heritage?
I'm glad you mentioned this because I had a close coworker friend from India and Diwali and Holi were very big festivals for her even when she didn't celebrate some of the other holidays. I loved that she shared Diwali with me! It's so fun!
SUCH a good episode. It brought up a lot of thoughts I’ve been circling through about therapy, sexuality, and sex therapy. When I was getting my masters in clinical mental health, I took a class from a queer professor & certified sex therapist called “human sexuality”. The very first day of class she said something along the lines of “this class, and sex in general, may make you uncomfortable as a clinician. Sex is arguably the biggest part of our lives — even if you’re not having it. So you better get comfy with asking your clients about their sex lives and sexuality and gender and relationships to sex now”. And she was soooo correct. I had not even realized how Sex loomed in therapy sessions in dark corners (both ones I performed and ones I attended for myself) and how uncomfortable I was bringing it up. I realized that I have never once had a therapist who has asked me about my sexuality (and I’ve had many therapists). This is ultimately such a disservice to your clients when you’re trying to understand their human experience. Fab episode once again!
Ok, I am only like 6 minutes in and just had to stop it to say this podcast came up on my Spotify and I started with the skinny apocalypse episode and I wanted to leave a comment but like I always do I wrote it in my head and that is where it stayed. But I had listened to a few episodes of different podcasts about that topic and y’all’s episode was the best conversation I had heard on the topic! So anyway I became a paid subscriber to listen to the trad wife episodes and have been listening to old episodes and listened to the womanospher episode the other day on a plane ride and busted up laughing when I think it was Katie said Charlie’s days were numbered! Ok that is all the stuff I have wanted to comment but never do and now I will actually listen to the episode. But you two are awesome!
I would love to hear from the lesbian listeners on this episode!
As a lesbian myself, I read the tragedy of heterosexuality last year and so much of it was pointing out how unnatural it seems to be straight - which Katie and Caro touched on a bit. I have mostly had straight friends and two straight sisters, and the casual misogyny I listen to from their loving partners sickens me. Hearing Usha vs Rama approach is what gives me hope!
Finally, I came out later as a lesbian. I dated men often and always dreaded the rest of my life, the kids, the suburbs, I just knew I was never going to be happy with that life. There just did not seem to be other options for me. I also think you give up the biggest social currency of all for women - having a man choose you - when you date women only. I hear a lot now how straight women envy queer women, which I can understand, but it does irritate me for obvious reasons.
PS. Even in the heated rivalry episode, I was surprised straight women loved this series so much bc it was two male athletes acting like "men" ie no femininity/flamboyance, no obvious girl or guy in the dynamic. I cannot think of a lesbian romance that has gotten this kind of attention unless it is the Hunting Wives...which is not about queer women in any real or meaningful way.
Lesbian listener and secret Caro/Katie OTP shipper (Just kidding!! No, but seriously everyone should be kissing!!!) here!
While I incredibly appreciate this conversation, it really is just the tip of the iceberg on lesbian feminist theory and there is much to explore about our biological sexual desires as women. I recommend reading Untrue by Wednesday Martin as an eye opening read on the subject of female sexuality. It really breaks down all of these traditional societal expectations vs actual desire.
I also want to tie back to the Heated Rivalry of it all. I think Caro/Katie can come full circle to talk about how the WNBA/Unrivaled as an avenue to queer counterpoint that gives space for lesbians to be culturally relevant. The WNBA tried to stifle queer representation for years but by leaning into the queer/female oriented identity, the authenticity has expanded the leagues. Check out Studbudz and Napheesa Collier’s call out speech of WNBA leadership (hot). It’s full of para-social heated rivelry-esque relationships and real feminist leadership on a grand stage.
Cato and Katie - not being aware of you having yet had kids! From a mother of 3 the idea that every pregnancy is planned and actively tried for is a little idealistic! We would hope that Usher Vance had some say in planning her 4th pregnancy (standard language that a pregnant woman has ownership of her unborn). As someone who unexpectedly found a 3rd child on the way - it was more a lapse in my planning to prevent than any active decision to have another child!
Sure, but the point of the discussion is that JD doesn’t respect women. If he wanted to have more kids and Usha didn’t, his desire would take precedent over hers. It could have been an unplanned pregnancy, but he also could’ve wheedled her into it. Given it’s a lot harder to get pregnant at 40 than at say, 25, I think it’s fair to assume there was a degree of intention involved, like stopping birth control or being deliberate about having sex during peak ovulation windows.
I agree I found the language that this pregnancy was planned a very big assumption especially given the Catholicism of it all. It was just as annoying as talking about the risks associated with advanced maternal age. Not saying it’s not riskier but not by a ton as has been previously thought and a point that the podcast has brought up in previous episodes. I understand Caro is trying to make a point but sometimes the nuance gets lost and I personally don’t find it helpful.
I was thinking along these lines as well. I also disagree with the premise that Usha said she didn't want a fourth baby. She didn't. She said she was happy with 3 and that they were out of the baby phase and that it's a nice place to be... but never that she was opposed to more.
Having spent time in circles where women often have 3,4,5 babies (and I have 3, planning on a fourth myself) thats a pretty typical thing for a mom to say... right before announcing a pregnancy.
It's a defense mechanism, especially as you get older and you almost don't want to admit that you want more because people will think you've lost your mind or they will point out the risks that you already know.
It was also odd to hear that having a baby after 40 described like this huge health concern (which it is risky, I know) but the way it was portrayed reminded me off all the gross red-pilled garbage thats like MAKE THOSE BABIES WHILE YOU'RE YOUNG DONT LET THOSE EGGS GET SCRAMBLED LADIES YOU'RE ONLY GOOD FOR 2 THINGS AND YOU ALREADY MADE MY DINNER
I went back and relistened to the part about having a baby over 40. I didn’t find it gross or over the top. They simply stated at this age, there is “increased likelihood of a c-section, increased likelihood of chromosomal abnormalities, increased risk of gestational disabilities, and increased risk of pre-eclampsia. It’s not nothing to have your fourth child at 40 years old.” Everything they said is true. Yeah, it’s uncomfortable, but it’s not also not inaccurate.
I would counter that women like Usha--exceptional, driven, and access to the best reproductive care money can buy--are definitely aware how pregnancy fits into their life goals, and most certainly plan every pregnancy. No offense, but to have an unplanned pregnancy in 2025 is a matter of healthcare access and attention to the subject. Medical science is beyond the “life finds a way” days.
Hard agree. Usha is a seasoned mother with access to reproductive care. I do subscribe to the “sperm can always find a way” philosophy. However, I feel it’s far more likely that this particular pregnancy was planned by somebody.
The reason I subscribed and pay for your podcast is because it is long, covering topics in depth with a bit of humor! I find short Tik Tok clips highly annoying, especially regarding political news. I really appreciated your episodes on capitalism & abortion, and hope new ones on both topics will be made.
This episode was really affirming to me as a bisexual woman who’s marrying a straight man in a few months. I’ve felt really uncomfortable with the idea that my queerness and experiences would be erased because the person I’ve chosen as a life partner happens to be a man. The discussion around Ward’s theories of queerness gives words to the kind of life and relationship I want to have, and it really made things click into place for me. Really looking forward to reading her book.
Side note: I think my favorite thing about Diabolical Lies is how interconnected every episode feels to a dozen other episodes, and how every episode sparks ten new topics I’d want to hear the pod cover. I hope this project is fulfilling to caro and katie as hosts for years to come #DiabolicalLiesWorldDomination
I'm also a bi woman in a relationship with a man. We are resisting the typical heteronormative trappings with all our might. And not going to lie, I've had to have frank conversations in the moment to prevent a slip. But it's all in love ❤️
Another bi woman married to a man clocking in. This episode made me feel depressed and then incredibly hopeful. Depressed in that I see so many “Ushas” in my life and hopeful in that I see so many (and experience) “Ramas”.
Bi woman married to a woman here (15 years). I really relate to the feeling of “losing” part of your identity when you choose a life partner.
I don’t feel like I lost my queer identity, but I do feel like I stopped being seen as bi. Once you’re married to a woman, a lot of people auto-file you as a lesbian.
When I started dating my now-wife in my early 20s, I struggled with labels in a way that really connects to this episode. When I dated men, I didn’t think of myself as queer… but I also didn’t think of myself straight. I didn't really think about a sexuality label at all. I was just me. It wasn’t until I was dating a woman that the world made me pick a box and I had to decide what language actually fit.
Now, years into marriage, most people only know me as “wife = lesbian,” and even my wife will sometimes refer to us both that way. It’s not offensive—just complicated.
I’m only a few minutes into this episode, but I want to tell everyone a little anecdote about Ward’s book. I found it a while back, and I felt really seen after I read it. When a close friend decided to kick her husband out and get a divorce, I immediately ordered a copy for her.
But the story doesn’t end there.
I order her copy from a local bookstore, and when I went to pick it up the person working there was visibly queer. They said something about what a great book it was and I agreed. Then I said: “This copy is for my friend. She just got divorced.” We both burst out laughing.
The end of this episode was deeply frustrating to me, specifically the framing of queerness around sex acts and not around who we are as queer people *in a society that is not built for us*. I think there is a distinct difference between heterosexuality and heteronormativity, and I think queerness exists in opposition to heteronormativity. In this conversation, and the conversations around the Heated Rivalry episode, people continue to talk about queerness as "how you have sex" or "what kind of sex you have" and whether what made HR attractive was the mutual respect or the supposed lack of a power dynamic, and *not* talk about the ways that queer couples have to choose again and again to show up for each other in the face of heteronormative violence. We talk so much about queer joy because we do not want to be seen as a collective tragedy, but also because the tragedy we experience necessitates creating space for queer joy. My queerness has almost nothing to do with the kind sex I have, or the power dynamics in my relationship, and everything to do with the way my wife and I choose to show up for each other in the hardest moments, when family are making us feel like shit, when a queer woman's identity gets written out of existence in her obituary after her public execution, when someone hurls verbal abuse on the subway at her. 50 to 100 years from now queerness is still going to be a struggle, because it's been a struggle since the dawn of patriarchy. We haven't made that much progress in the last 50 years that the only thing left to negotiate is sex. And to take all of this and package it into "heterosexuality harms straight people too" and that's why we can't hold Usha accountable for laundering her husband's violent political rhetoric to make it more palatable because she's suffering too! just really sucks. Respecting and liking your partner is not something queer people own. Straight people can choose to do that too, and they can also choose not to defend policies that cost queer people their lives. Usha can get fucked.
I would also like to add that I don’t think we have been assuming your sexualities because you are women married to men, I believe you’ve both said multiple times that you are straight.
I say this without having listened to the bonus ep today, I will get to that later tonight, but I want to throw in my two cents while it's fresh on my mind.
With regards to BuckeyeFan42069's comments, I think his angry response is emblematic of the difference between liberal straight men and radical ones.
IMO, liberals are still protectors of the existing order, which is why we hear things like "not all men" and "an attack on men turns me off" from them.
Radicals, on the other hand (and by definition) are committed to systemic change and can more often hold the dialectic that "men, as a social phenomenon can be described, criticized, and praised" AND at the same time "I am an individual."
Separate note, similar theme:
As you guys described Usha as both smart/accomplished AND imprisoned, I felt like you were judging her with the notion that "As an educated accomplished women WE feel like you are being robbed and subjugated." That perspective seems to me to reflect your bias for "what women should want."
While I feel like your perspective is held by many women (those I've talked to), it seems Usha WANTS to be in this place. She seems to have no desire to be anywhere else.
This episode perfectly incapsulated why it feels like Im telling someone Im republican when I identify as straight lol. It feels like an increasingly embarrassing thing to admit in leftist circles that I am sexually attracted almost exclusively to men! Which is like such a non-problem for have but has left me with a lot of complicated feelings internally, so this episode gave me a lot of insight in untangling that. Loved the hopecore ending that we are moving in a better direction as a society but I must say being a woman unwilling to settle for anything less than equal partnership and full humanity in a world where so many men in my dating pool are still operatong under the old way of dehumanization and possession suuuuuucks
Wow “I think I’ve seen this film before and i didn’t like the ending!” Usha IS Hillary Clinton but a republican version. Hillary was always more qualified than Bill.
As an Indian woman who grew up in America and is not Hindu, Usha’s little splainer on how they have supposedly exposed her children to both cultures stopped me in my tracks. My Indian parents raised me to be atheist and we still celebrate Diwali and other regional holidays like Pongal and Independence Day. Diwali is such an ingrained part of our culture that my friends and in laws also celebrate with us. So the fact that they don’t celebrate any Indian holidays is a dead giveaway that Indian culture has been effectively erased from their lives.
I loved this episode, and I want to stay that even hearing all of this I don’t feel a lot of empathy for Usha in part because of the above. She has simultaneously managed to perpetuate the vilest facets of Brahmin/Indian wealth culture in this political landscape and also has somehow turned her back on that culture. I also have a different view of her political journey. I agree she is remarkably accomplished and clearly intelligent but there’s a way of looking at her career as calculated to end up exactly where she is - at the top of a group who values wealth above all. I also want to point out that Melania genuinely doesn’t give a fuck about anything, but Usha is out there trying her level best to be relevant. Maybe she got more than she bargained but I feel like her end game was a cynical play for political power.
Anyways in the words of Michael Jordan…as another Indian woman who is a lawyer married to a white man with interracial children and extremely successful parents who are free babysitters…..I took that personally 😂
I have been writing about this in unhinged comments in the chat since yesterday. Like her path is the same as Harris ffs! She chose to embrace what she clearly sees as the Brahmins of the west.
Indian culture is celebrating everything being celebrated around you. You will see Hindus making Eid party plans. Muslims wanting to go play garba. Everyone bursting enough crackers to destroy the worlds aqi index as the goal. If you are an atheist you still go meet family and friends in shiny clothing on those days.
If you have an Indian family and they have seen NO Indian festivals, that takes active rejection of your heritage. I mean the White House has a Diwali party ffs!
she is smarter than Vance and I am now wondering if it’s her hard work and goals that got him here. How does he even get the connections he does without her?
Okay I am going full conspiracy theory galaxy brain now and I’m going to stop because her evil this isn’t the point of this episode.
Yeeeeees! Fuckit, let's go full on conspiracy theory. Caro, I am a massive fan and firmly believe you speak the God's honest truth no matter what you're talking about. But I was struck by your generous reading of Usha. I want to be an ally, truly I do, but I also think we can't just assume that she is the poor wittle oppressed wife just because, Sisterhood. (Also because JD is so vile he naturally gives us all the ICK already...) But if Usha is really so brilliant and JD is really so mid, isn't there just the tiniest chance that she might actually be the one running the show? She clerked for Roberts and then Kavanaugh FFS- not exactly bastions of liberal thought. Maybe it was Usha grabbed those coattails? Maybe it was Usha that hitched JD's train to the Trumpwagon? I need to go and watch her interviews myself and maybe I'll feel differently but still... @caro, you said that she was playing the long game and coulda made it to the Supreme Court - look where they are now! No long game needed. She's Second Lady and is THIS CLOSE to becoming First Lady. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a judgement about her being evil. It's about agency. Why do we think that Rama has agency and Usha doesn't? Does a woman only get to have agency if her husband allows it? If that is true, then heterosexuality truly is a tragedy. I want to think that Usha has agency and has simply made choices 'we' (feminists?) don't approve of. And so we have to blame her horrible husband and make it his fault.
Exactly where I went!
And the fourth pregnancy, what if it was her deciding that JD Vance’s political career will be finished if he left his pregnant wife for Erika Kirk?
And the whole they don’t do hindu festivals, no way a religious paati from Andhra Pradesh is baby sitting these kids and not doing traditions with them. It’s impossible. The pope not believing in Jesus levels of impossible.
As I think deeper, this is her act, In my opinion. Keep displaying that he makes the decisions and she is keeping the narratives straight and “acceptable”. This is her performing whiteness to the republican base. Noo my kids have no influence at all from brownness!
I think all of this is SO interesting. I am insanely curious about the 4th pregnancy and we’ll probably never really know what happened there, but I find it fascinating that it immediately clicked (clocked??) to us Indian lefties here that everything Usha and Vance are doing here is completely in line with Brahmin culture. I do think that it’s impossible to understand Usha without understanding caste and its atrocities.
Like I am from a Brahmin family. I know exactly where she is coming from and there is no way In hell the whiteness performance of the children isn’t a deliberate attempt. Unlike Harris, she isn’t from a mixed heritage. Which means for her to have not influenced at them all, it’s her consciously and calculatedly raising them and keeping herself from getting in the way of their ability to rise in the social hierarchy. Because after all brahminism is correct. But to be a Brahmin in the US is to be rich, white, Christian and powerful. And she knows, her conversion means nothing. Vivek Ramaswamy’s judeo Christian hindutva nonsense was profoundly rejected by the base she wants to have hierarchy over. But if she raised good little catholic children despite her brownness, then obviously they will have to see her as the exception. She wants to be their token brown person they can wave around to say see we aren’t racist. If you assimilate we will totally accept you as our own.
This is the game Brahmins played when they got into the colonial administrative services. We are very good at social hierarchy and how to be “not the ruling class”, avoiding culpability and saying we were on the right side all along.
I think this is the deepest level of articulate, insightful, unique criticism that this comment section has seen in a long time. Bravo 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
“This is the game Brahmins played when they got into the colonial administrative services. We are very good at social hierarchy and how to be “not the ruling class”, avoiding culpability and saying we were on the right side all along.” 100%!!
The piece I can’t fully understand (other than the 4th pregnancy) is why she just hasn’t converted to Catholicism yet. Would love to hear your thoughts on that!
This is absolutely fascinating. Thank you, thank you so much for shining a cultural light on this.
I loved reading y'all's analysis here OMGGGGGGGG thank you for sharing!!!!!!!!!
Take this with a grain of salt, but I did see a TikTok clip where someone who worked at a restaurant in DC mentioned that the VP and Usha were in a fight where she was begging him not to peruse the presidency because so many people openly dislike them. Obviously I can't validate this because TikTok, but it would not surprise me given that their family seems to get booed everywhere they go. This feels more plausible than the idea that she is pulling the string behind the scenes.
“It's about agency. Why do we think that Rama has agency and Usha doesn't? Does a woman only get to have agency if her husband allows it? If that is true, then heterosexuality truly is a tragedy. I want to think that Usha has agency and has simply made choices 'we' (feminists?) don't approve of. And so we have to blame her horrible husband and make it his fault.” 🔥
I mean being a member of the Brahmin class may still give her a lot of connections, even in the US. Context for readers who aren't from Indian or Indian-American families: Brahmin is the highest caste in the Indian class system. While caste-based discrimination is banned in India by law, I think it's important context to know that being of that class likely gives her access to beneficial relationships, in the same way being upper-class in the US gives someone access to certain people, even though people of all classes can apply to the same schools and jobs.
Thank you for sharing your experience and observations. I was curious about Usha from a more intersectional lens so was pleased to glean some insight via your comment.
I am married to a non-religious immigrant from Iran and the non acknowledgement of Diwali stood out to me. I know it’s ultimately tied to religion, but all of my non-religious Indian friends celebrate it culturally. I equated it to the Persian celebration of Nowruz (which, to be fair, is a genuinely non-religious holiday <roots in ancient religion acknowledged>). again, different cultures and different situations, but struck me as bizarre that they don’t seem to celebrate any Indian holidays? I’m not even the Persian one in my marriage, but I’ve gone through great lengths to ensure my son has exposure to that part of his heritage?? feels like mutual support of each others’ cultures should be part of the package when you marry someone outside of your heritage?
I'm glad you mentioned this because I had a close coworker friend from India and Diwali and Holi were very big festivals for her even when she didn't celebrate some of the other holidays. I loved that she shared Diwali with me! It's so fun!
The gay agenda (aka fostering our own humanity and seeing/cherishing it in others) is literally unstoppable. Perfect ep ✨🫶
This episode fucks so hard
SUCH a good episode. It brought up a lot of thoughts I’ve been circling through about therapy, sexuality, and sex therapy. When I was getting my masters in clinical mental health, I took a class from a queer professor & certified sex therapist called “human sexuality”. The very first day of class she said something along the lines of “this class, and sex in general, may make you uncomfortable as a clinician. Sex is arguably the biggest part of our lives — even if you’re not having it. So you better get comfy with asking your clients about their sex lives and sexuality and gender and relationships to sex now”. And she was soooo correct. I had not even realized how Sex loomed in therapy sessions in dark corners (both ones I performed and ones I attended for myself) and how uncomfortable I was bringing it up. I realized that I have never once had a therapist who has asked me about my sexuality (and I’ve had many therapists). This is ultimately such a disservice to your clients when you’re trying to understand their human experience. Fab episode once again!
Ok, I am only like 6 minutes in and just had to stop it to say this podcast came up on my Spotify and I started with the skinny apocalypse episode and I wanted to leave a comment but like I always do I wrote it in my head and that is where it stayed. But I had listened to a few episodes of different podcasts about that topic and y’all’s episode was the best conversation I had heard on the topic! So anyway I became a paid subscriber to listen to the trad wife episodes and have been listening to old episodes and listened to the womanospher episode the other day on a plane ride and busted up laughing when I think it was Katie said Charlie’s days were numbered! Ok that is all the stuff I have wanted to comment but never do and now I will actually listen to the episode. But you two are awesome!
I would love to hear from the lesbian listeners on this episode!
As a lesbian myself, I read the tragedy of heterosexuality last year and so much of it was pointing out how unnatural it seems to be straight - which Katie and Caro touched on a bit. I have mostly had straight friends and two straight sisters, and the casual misogyny I listen to from their loving partners sickens me. Hearing Usha vs Rama approach is what gives me hope!
Finally, I came out later as a lesbian. I dated men often and always dreaded the rest of my life, the kids, the suburbs, I just knew I was never going to be happy with that life. There just did not seem to be other options for me. I also think you give up the biggest social currency of all for women - having a man choose you - when you date women only. I hear a lot now how straight women envy queer women, which I can understand, but it does irritate me for obvious reasons.
PS. Even in the heated rivalry episode, I was surprised straight women loved this series so much bc it was two male athletes acting like "men" ie no femininity/flamboyance, no obvious girl or guy in the dynamic. I cannot think of a lesbian romance that has gotten this kind of attention unless it is the Hunting Wives...which is not about queer women in any real or meaningful way.
Lesbian listener and secret Caro/Katie OTP shipper (Just kidding!! No, but seriously everyone should be kissing!!!) here!
While I incredibly appreciate this conversation, it really is just the tip of the iceberg on lesbian feminist theory and there is much to explore about our biological sexual desires as women. I recommend reading Untrue by Wednesday Martin as an eye opening read on the subject of female sexuality. It really breaks down all of these traditional societal expectations vs actual desire.
I also want to tie back to the Heated Rivalry of it all. I think Caro/Katie can come full circle to talk about how the WNBA/Unrivaled as an avenue to queer counterpoint that gives space for lesbians to be culturally relevant. The WNBA tried to stifle queer representation for years but by leaning into the queer/female oriented identity, the authenticity has expanded the leagues. Check out Studbudz and Napheesa Collier’s call out speech of WNBA leadership (hot). It’s full of para-social heated rivelry-esque relationships and real feminist leadership on a grand stage.
You're amazing thank you for this!!!!
I wrote on discord about how my husband listened to the heated rivalry episode and was very hurt , dismissed, and frustrated by it as a bisexual man.
Cato and Katie - not being aware of you having yet had kids! From a mother of 3 the idea that every pregnancy is planned and actively tried for is a little idealistic! We would hope that Usher Vance had some say in planning her 4th pregnancy (standard language that a pregnant woman has ownership of her unborn). As someone who unexpectedly found a 3rd child on the way - it was more a lapse in my planning to prevent than any active decision to have another child!
Sure, but the point of the discussion is that JD doesn’t respect women. If he wanted to have more kids and Usha didn’t, his desire would take precedent over hers. It could have been an unplanned pregnancy, but he also could’ve wheedled her into it. Given it’s a lot harder to get pregnant at 40 than at say, 25, I think it’s fair to assume there was a degree of intention involved, like stopping birth control or being deliberate about having sex during peak ovulation windows.
I agree I found the language that this pregnancy was planned a very big assumption especially given the Catholicism of it all. It was just as annoying as talking about the risks associated with advanced maternal age. Not saying it’s not riskier but not by a ton as has been previously thought and a point that the podcast has brought up in previous episodes. I understand Caro is trying to make a point but sometimes the nuance gets lost and I personally don’t find it helpful.
I was thinking along these lines as well. I also disagree with the premise that Usha said she didn't want a fourth baby. She didn't. She said she was happy with 3 and that they were out of the baby phase and that it's a nice place to be... but never that she was opposed to more.
Having spent time in circles where women often have 3,4,5 babies (and I have 3, planning on a fourth myself) thats a pretty typical thing for a mom to say... right before announcing a pregnancy.
It's a defense mechanism, especially as you get older and you almost don't want to admit that you want more because people will think you've lost your mind or they will point out the risks that you already know.
It was also odd to hear that having a baby after 40 described like this huge health concern (which it is risky, I know) but the way it was portrayed reminded me off all the gross red-pilled garbage thats like MAKE THOSE BABIES WHILE YOU'RE YOUNG DONT LET THOSE EGGS GET SCRAMBLED LADIES YOU'RE ONLY GOOD FOR 2 THINGS AND YOU ALREADY MADE MY DINNER
I went back and relistened to the part about having a baby over 40. I didn’t find it gross or over the top. They simply stated at this age, there is “increased likelihood of a c-section, increased likelihood of chromosomal abnormalities, increased risk of gestational disabilities, and increased risk of pre-eclampsia. It’s not nothing to have your fourth child at 40 years old.” Everything they said is true. Yeah, it’s uncomfortable, but it’s not also not inaccurate.
I would counter that women like Usha--exceptional, driven, and access to the best reproductive care money can buy--are definitely aware how pregnancy fits into their life goals, and most certainly plan every pregnancy. No offense, but to have an unplanned pregnancy in 2025 is a matter of healthcare access and attention to the subject. Medical science is beyond the “life finds a way” days.
Hard agree. Usha is a seasoned mother with access to reproductive care. I do subscribe to the “sperm can always find a way” philosophy. However, I feel it’s far more likely that this particular pregnancy was planned by somebody.
The reason I subscribed and pay for your podcast is because it is long, covering topics in depth with a bit of humor! I find short Tik Tok clips highly annoying, especially regarding political news. I really appreciated your episodes on capitalism & abortion, and hope new ones on both topics will be made.
This episode was really affirming to me as a bisexual woman who’s marrying a straight man in a few months. I’ve felt really uncomfortable with the idea that my queerness and experiences would be erased because the person I’ve chosen as a life partner happens to be a man. The discussion around Ward’s theories of queerness gives words to the kind of life and relationship I want to have, and it really made things click into place for me. Really looking forward to reading her book.
Side note: I think my favorite thing about Diabolical Lies is how interconnected every episode feels to a dozen other episodes, and how every episode sparks ten new topics I’d want to hear the pod cover. I hope this project is fulfilling to caro and katie as hosts for years to come #DiabolicalLiesWorldDomination
I'm also a bi woman in a relationship with a man. We are resisting the typical heteronormative trappings with all our might. And not going to lie, I've had to have frank conversations in the moment to prevent a slip. But it's all in love ❤️
Another bi woman married to a man clocking in. This episode made me feel depressed and then incredibly hopeful. Depressed in that I see so many “Ushas” in my life and hopeful in that I see so many (and experience) “Ramas”.
Bi woman married to a woman here (15 years). I really relate to the feeling of “losing” part of your identity when you choose a life partner.
I don’t feel like I lost my queer identity, but I do feel like I stopped being seen as bi. Once you’re married to a woman, a lot of people auto-file you as a lesbian.
When I started dating my now-wife in my early 20s, I struggled with labels in a way that really connects to this episode. When I dated men, I didn’t think of myself as queer… but I also didn’t think of myself straight. I didn't really think about a sexuality label at all. I was just me. It wasn’t until I was dating a woman that the world made me pick a box and I had to decide what language actually fit.
Now, years into marriage, most people only know me as “wife = lesbian,” and even my wife will sometimes refer to us both that way. It’s not offensive—just complicated.
I’m only a few minutes into this episode, but I want to tell everyone a little anecdote about Ward’s book. I found it a while back, and I felt really seen after I read it. When a close friend decided to kick her husband out and get a divorce, I immediately ordered a copy for her.
But the story doesn’t end there.
I order her copy from a local bookstore, and when I went to pick it up the person working there was visibly queer. They said something about what a great book it was and I agreed. Then I said: “This copy is for my friend. She just got divorced.” We both burst out laughing.
Anyway, it was a great interaction.
The end of this episode was deeply frustrating to me, specifically the framing of queerness around sex acts and not around who we are as queer people *in a society that is not built for us*. I think there is a distinct difference between heterosexuality and heteronormativity, and I think queerness exists in opposition to heteronormativity. In this conversation, and the conversations around the Heated Rivalry episode, people continue to talk about queerness as "how you have sex" or "what kind of sex you have" and whether what made HR attractive was the mutual respect or the supposed lack of a power dynamic, and *not* talk about the ways that queer couples have to choose again and again to show up for each other in the face of heteronormative violence. We talk so much about queer joy because we do not want to be seen as a collective tragedy, but also because the tragedy we experience necessitates creating space for queer joy. My queerness has almost nothing to do with the kind sex I have, or the power dynamics in my relationship, and everything to do with the way my wife and I choose to show up for each other in the hardest moments, when family are making us feel like shit, when a queer woman's identity gets written out of existence in her obituary after her public execution, when someone hurls verbal abuse on the subway at her. 50 to 100 years from now queerness is still going to be a struggle, because it's been a struggle since the dawn of patriarchy. We haven't made that much progress in the last 50 years that the only thing left to negotiate is sex. And to take all of this and package it into "heterosexuality harms straight people too" and that's why we can't hold Usha accountable for laundering her husband's violent political rhetoric to make it more palatable because she's suffering too! just really sucks. Respecting and liking your partner is not something queer people own. Straight people can choose to do that too, and they can also choose not to defend policies that cost queer people their lives. Usha can get fucked.
I would also like to add that I don’t think we have been assuming your sexualities because you are women married to men, I believe you’ve both said multiple times that you are straight.
I say this without having listened to the bonus ep today, I will get to that later tonight, but I want to throw in my two cents while it's fresh on my mind.
With regards to BuckeyeFan42069's comments, I think his angry response is emblematic of the difference between liberal straight men and radical ones.
IMO, liberals are still protectors of the existing order, which is why we hear things like "not all men" and "an attack on men turns me off" from them.
Radicals, on the other hand (and by definition) are committed to systemic change and can more often hold the dialectic that "men, as a social phenomenon can be described, criticized, and praised" AND at the same time "I am an individual."
Separate note, similar theme:
As you guys described Usha as both smart/accomplished AND imprisoned, I felt like you were judging her with the notion that "As an educated accomplished women WE feel like you are being robbed and subjugated." That perspective seems to me to reflect your bias for "what women should want."
While I feel like your perspective is held by many women (those I've talked to), it seems Usha WANTS to be in this place. She seems to have no desire to be anywhere else.
Dude, I deeply appreciate this comment. Both parts.
I am a good noticings listener and they recommended you - also have seen Caro’s ballerina farm takes on tik tok and was drawn to her way of thinking
This episode perfectly incapsulated why it feels like Im telling someone Im republican when I identify as straight lol. It feels like an increasingly embarrassing thing to admit in leftist circles that I am sexually attracted almost exclusively to men! Which is like such a non-problem for have but has left me with a lot of complicated feelings internally, so this episode gave me a lot of insight in untangling that. Loved the hopecore ending that we are moving in a better direction as a society but I must say being a woman unwilling to settle for anything less than equal partnership and full humanity in a world where so many men in my dating pool are still operatong under the old way of dehumanization and possession suuuuuucks
Same, but the ante up is I have kids. Not only do I like men, I’m populating the earth just as JDV wants.
Wow “I think I’ve seen this film before and i didn’t like the ending!” Usha IS Hillary Clinton but a republican version. Hillary was always more qualified than Bill.
Okay I’m only 3 chapters into Middlemarch but JD Vance is giving Sir James Chettam!
Middlemarch hive RISE UP
wowwww madison please get back to us MMheads after you finish and we can have a healthy debate re:who best encapsulates the JD energy!