I feel like I have something longer and more nuanced to say about this episode (a great one, btw), but my primary thought right now, as I sit under ICE occupation in Minneapolis, is this:
Scott Galloway is saying that men need a war to fight, but from where I sit, civil war — if not WWIII — is at our doorstep. And the men aren’t doing shit. Women are leading mutual aid efforts. Women are leading protest marches. Women are leading rapid response. Women are organizing hyper-local community groups. The tiniest woman you know is walking her happy ass up and down Lake St. in Minneapolis to keep her neighbors safe. The mildest soccer mom you know is organizing parents and neighbors to keep a watch at school drop-off, recess, and pick-up. The most marginalized female legislators are using the strongest language to condemn ICE and the federal government and are out there in the streets with their constituents day after day.
When you witness with your own eyes and watch videos of what’s happening right now in MN (and what happened in Chicago and LA before us), you will see an abundance of women.
Where. The fuck. Are the men?? Your community is out here, men! We’re ready and waiting for you to get on board! We’re BEGGING you to join us and stand up against authoritarian rule!
Oh wait…it turns out men weren’t looking for an occasion to which they could rise? Got it. Fucking seen and noted.
And I KNOW men are in this chat and I KNOW not all men are the problem. But the fact that large numbers of men aren’t out using the full weight of their privilege to fight these fascists with their whole goddamn chest is INFURIATING to me.
In my experience (no citations 🤣), when put in positions of power and influence, men generally care about, in order: themselves, their bloodline.
Women I know care about, in order: their family, their community, themselves. (I’d love to see us put ourselves first more often.)
We say “Hey, do you have enough? I have extra - have some.”
Because we care deeply about the community at all, beyond our own personal gains, we want to avoid a war, and even the conditions that would lead to it, if there’s a way to approach the issue with peace and reason.
Men, meanwhile, are going to further hoard and isolate, further contributing to the communication breakdown and lack of empathy-building across our constructed divides.
Yes, while watching a bunch of ICE officers race off from a nearby gas station and seeing they were almost l men, I had the epiphany that maybe Scott Galloway is right and the men do need a war, it’s just that the men intend to be the oppressors in that war.
Men don’t want to stand with their community amidst our feelings of powerlessness. Men only want to be in “community” with those they perceive as powerful…even if those people are the bad guys.
I'm sorry that you're experiencing the violence in Minneapolis but I appreciate the insight you're bringing in its wake. Isn't this also a good example of how patriarchy harms society at large including men? Men manufacture a fiction of self-worth by enlisting in a unit like ICE or border patrol that harms their community. Many many people are suffering at the hands of these men, and these men themselves suffer psychologically when they commit violence against others. Likewise, as they commit violence against their community, their personal circles suffer by being called to either support these men in their violent pursuits or condemn them despite the bonds they've formed with them previously.
This episode deserves a standing ovation, ty for saving me from buying Scott's book as I was this close to reading it out of curiosity about what the mediocre white men were saying. The Instagram poll stat took me out.
The reason this is not a culture war moment is because they are both traditionally masculine gay men. It’s not as uncomfortable for other straight men to watch that, in contrast to a gay man performing “femininity” in a relationship with another man. Side note: this is some of the criticism from the queer community, but as a fan of the show and Jacob Tierney, I hope in the future could portray lots of different queer relationships and have it land this way.
I'm at the part where he has a stat in his book that he did not cite and it was a poll from a website! (I didn't know you could publish a book without citing sources, mind boggling). it reminded me of a guy I briefly dated who had "biologist" in his Instagram bio. this man has 0 degrees but he knows how to garden and make fires so... meanwhile I have a masters degree in biology and work as a state research scientist and have never called myself a biologist because I don't have a PhD. the audacity of men and societies crushing power to make us feel small. 🫠
There is so much I like about this episode, but the ending left me flat. Cari and Katie are two white, economically privileged, married women. It felt glib for their answer to be “just don’t lower your standards” when many women do not have the privileges that C & K do. Not to mention at a time when economic precarity is skyrocketing and when heteronormative family structures are still the basic block of community in our society. It’s not as simple as “go
buy a vibrator and don’t settle.” I think this is an episode where a guest host who has a different life perspective REALLY would have advanced the discourse.
Agree. I really loved most of this episode and think the contrast between Scott Galloway's and Heated Rivalry's fictions of masculinity was so smart and such helpful framing. The point that felt glib to me was when Caro called her marriage queer because it doesn't adhere to the same power differential as is expected from heteronormativity. This is where bringing in a more queer perspective would have been helpful, even if it were another TikTok as a reference.
Overall, I'm grateful for the allyship (lesbian here). Still, a cis, straight marriage isn't queer (unless I missed something-- I believe I've heard Katie and Caro both identify as straight). Plus, it is actually quite common for misogyny to play a part in gay relationships. Losing that nuance can lead to further harm.
I felt this way too. I'm a cis queer woman married to a cis queer man... and I wouldn't describe my marriage as queer because it's the opposite of queer. It's a straight marriage in the eyes of society even though neither partner is straight... we get all the benefits of straightness, and that's not something that can be brushed aside just because traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity are less in play in our partnership than they might be in others. The long tiktok extract played earlier in the episode was interesting on the topic of how gender plays out in mixed gender cis relationships, and the creator was responding to how she perceived it plays out in same gender relationships, but again this was from the perspective of a cis straight woman. I think bringing in other perspectives here would be really useful and enlightening.
Yes! I'm late to listening to this episode but I had the thoughts above and wanted to echo as well. It's presented as if all queer relationships are inherently equal and that is not the case (or like the comment above that there are parts of Caro’s marriage that are “queer" because that's where they're equal).
The research on early childhood brain development and sex differences is interesting, but Caro is spot on with teacher perspectives and educational disparities on class and race vs gender. Walter Gilliam has done some great research on early childhood expulsion. One study in particular looked at challenging behaviors. Teachers would indicate when they experienced a challenging behavior and the research indicated insane disparities between girls and boys, and *spoiler alert* black boys had way more cases of the teacher saying there was challenge behavior. But SURPRISE! There was actually NO challenging behavior happening at all, just proving that we implicitly view the behavior of black boys as more challenging. The 3 main risk factors in getting expelled from early childhood settings are the 3 Bs - black, big, boy. Dr. Rosemarie Allen has also done some amazing work in racial disparities in early education. And early education essentially starts the trajectory for all other schooling.
Wow. So many reactions to the woman sharing her reaction and 6 points about Heated Rivalry. It may be that the idea of love on an open playing field is really appealing to straight women, however queer relationships are not devoid of power dynamics, and the idea that in queer relationships gender no longer matters is also a fantasy. In this case those things maybe don’t matter as much because they have similar status, similar gender expression, and are both white. Again, the equity of the dynamic is maybe a huge draw and invites us to think about what that would feel like, but the idea that queer relationships are inherently that way seems really off the mark when we know that there’s always race, class, ability, etc that can complicate power dynamics in both straight and queer relationships.
I feel like I have something longer and more nuanced to say about this episode (a great one, btw), but my primary thought right now, as I sit under ICE occupation in Minneapolis, is this:
Scott Galloway is saying that men need a war to fight, but from where I sit, civil war — if not WWIII — is at our doorstep. And the men aren’t doing shit. Women are leading mutual aid efforts. Women are leading protest marches. Women are leading rapid response. Women are organizing hyper-local community groups. The tiniest woman you know is walking her happy ass up and down Lake St. in Minneapolis to keep her neighbors safe. The mildest soccer mom you know is organizing parents and neighbors to keep a watch at school drop-off, recess, and pick-up. The most marginalized female legislators are using the strongest language to condemn ICE and the federal government and are out there in the streets with their constituents day after day.
When you witness with your own eyes and watch videos of what’s happening right now in MN (and what happened in Chicago and LA before us), you will see an abundance of women.
Where. The fuck. Are the men?? Your community is out here, men! We’re ready and waiting for you to get on board! We’re BEGGING you to join us and stand up against authoritarian rule!
Oh wait…it turns out men weren’t looking for an occasion to which they could rise? Got it. Fucking seen and noted.
And I KNOW men are in this chat and I KNOW not all men are the problem. But the fact that large numbers of men aren’t out using the full weight of their privilege to fight these fascists with their whole goddamn chest is INFURIATING to me.
In my experience (no citations 🤣), when put in positions of power and influence, men generally care about, in order: themselves, their bloodline.
Women I know care about, in order: their family, their community, themselves. (I’d love to see us put ourselves first more often.)
We say “Hey, do you have enough? I have extra - have some.”
Because we care deeply about the community at all, beyond our own personal gains, we want to avoid a war, and even the conditions that would lead to it, if there’s a way to approach the issue with peace and reason.
Men, meanwhile, are going to further hoard and isolate, further contributing to the communication breakdown and lack of empathy-building across our constructed divides.
Yes, while watching a bunch of ICE officers race off from a nearby gas station and seeing they were almost l men, I had the epiphany that maybe Scott Galloway is right and the men do need a war, it’s just that the men intend to be the oppressors in that war.
Men don’t want to stand with their community amidst our feelings of powerlessness. Men only want to be in “community” with those they perceive as powerful…even if those people are the bad guys.
I'm sorry that you're experiencing the violence in Minneapolis but I appreciate the insight you're bringing in its wake. Isn't this also a good example of how patriarchy harms society at large including men? Men manufacture a fiction of self-worth by enlisting in a unit like ICE or border patrol that harms their community. Many many people are suffering at the hands of these men, and these men themselves suffer psychologically when they commit violence against others. Likewise, as they commit violence against their community, their personal circles suffer by being called to either support these men in their violent pursuits or condemn them despite the bonds they've formed with them previously.
Eating our terrible Galloway vegetables to get to our delicious Heated Rivalry dessert ❤️👌
This was magnificent.
"Sorry we're so good at school, Scott!" 🤣🤣
dying at "gotcha journalism attack piece" lolll
This episode deserves a standing ovation, ty for saving me from buying Scott's book as I was this close to reading it out of curiosity about what the mediocre white men were saying. The Instagram poll stat took me out.
Cackling at the “80% of the senior management I’ve experienced have been women or gay men.” “OK … STILL MEN!”
The reason this is not a culture war moment is because they are both traditionally masculine gay men. It’s not as uncomfortable for other straight men to watch that, in contrast to a gay man performing “femininity” in a relationship with another man. Side note: this is some of the criticism from the queer community, but as a fan of the show and Jacob Tierney, I hope in the future could portray lots of different queer relationships and have it land this way.
So true!!!!
As a boy (man) thank you in advance 🙏
I'm at the part where he has a stat in his book that he did not cite and it was a poll from a website! (I didn't know you could publish a book without citing sources, mind boggling). it reminded me of a guy I briefly dated who had "biologist" in his Instagram bio. this man has 0 degrees but he knows how to garden and make fires so... meanwhile I have a masters degree in biology and work as a state research scientist and have never called myself a biologist because I don't have a PhD. the audacity of men and societies crushing power to make us feel small. 🫠
"We just need a third world war!"
Katie, I am cackling.
Thank y'all for this 🫶
ONE SIMPLE TRICK
This finally gave me the push i needed to watch Heated Rivalry
There is so much I like about this episode, but the ending left me flat. Cari and Katie are two white, economically privileged, married women. It felt glib for their answer to be “just don’t lower your standards” when many women do not have the privileges that C & K do. Not to mention at a time when economic precarity is skyrocketing and when heteronormative family structures are still the basic block of community in our society. It’s not as simple as “go
buy a vibrator and don’t settle.” I think this is an episode where a guest host who has a different life perspective REALLY would have advanced the discourse.
Agree. I really loved most of this episode and think the contrast between Scott Galloway's and Heated Rivalry's fictions of masculinity was so smart and such helpful framing. The point that felt glib to me was when Caro called her marriage queer because it doesn't adhere to the same power differential as is expected from heteronormativity. This is where bringing in a more queer perspective would have been helpful, even if it were another TikTok as a reference.
Overall, I'm grateful for the allyship (lesbian here). Still, a cis, straight marriage isn't queer (unless I missed something-- I believe I've heard Katie and Caro both identify as straight). Plus, it is actually quite common for misogyny to play a part in gay relationships. Losing that nuance can lead to further harm.
I felt this way too. I'm a cis queer woman married to a cis queer man... and I wouldn't describe my marriage as queer because it's the opposite of queer. It's a straight marriage in the eyes of society even though neither partner is straight... we get all the benefits of straightness, and that's not something that can be brushed aside just because traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity are less in play in our partnership than they might be in others. The long tiktok extract played earlier in the episode was interesting on the topic of how gender plays out in mixed gender cis relationships, and the creator was responding to how she perceived it plays out in same gender relationships, but again this was from the perspective of a cis straight woman. I think bringing in other perspectives here would be really useful and enlightening.
You can’t have conversations about power and erase power dynamics when it’s convenient. This is a powerful point
Yes! I'm late to listening to this episode but I had the thoughts above and wanted to echo as well. It's presented as if all queer relationships are inherently equal and that is not the case (or like the comment above that there are parts of Caro’s marriage that are “queer" because that's where they're equal).
Echoing this. It also felt in conflict with the “if he wanted to, he would” critique they made earlier.
The end of this episode had me going “MMHM MMHM MMHM!” A truly perfect DL ep. Thank you.
The research on early childhood brain development and sex differences is interesting, but Caro is spot on with teacher perspectives and educational disparities on class and race vs gender. Walter Gilliam has done some great research on early childhood expulsion. One study in particular looked at challenging behaviors. Teachers would indicate when they experienced a challenging behavior and the research indicated insane disparities between girls and boys, and *spoiler alert* black boys had way more cases of the teacher saying there was challenge behavior. But SURPRISE! There was actually NO challenging behavior happening at all, just proving that we implicitly view the behavior of black boys as more challenging. The 3 main risk factors in getting expelled from early childhood settings are the 3 Bs - black, big, boy. Dr. Rosemarie Allen has also done some amazing work in racial disparities in early education. And early education essentially starts the trajectory for all other schooling.
Should I watch the show before listening 👀
There’s one major spoiler about ep 5 but katie hadn’t finished when we were talking so we dont discuss how it ends
What time stamp is this so I can avoid? 🫣
Wow. So many reactions to the woman sharing her reaction and 6 points about Heated Rivalry. It may be that the idea of love on an open playing field is really appealing to straight women, however queer relationships are not devoid of power dynamics, and the idea that in queer relationships gender no longer matters is also a fantasy. In this case those things maybe don’t matter as much because they have similar status, similar gender expression, and are both white. Again, the equity of the dynamic is maybe a huge draw and invites us to think about what that would feel like, but the idea that queer relationships are inherently that way seems really off the mark when we know that there’s always race, class, ability, etc that can complicate power dynamics in both straight and queer relationships.