Did anyone else find it incredibly bizarre when Daniel made the comment about her always getting pregnant 9 months after giving birth? She was basically like yeah it's God's will, and he was basically like *well it is God's will but it also somehow always seems to happen 9 months after childbirth like clockwork 🤠*..... Why did he say that? What was that supposed to signify? 🥴🤔
That he doesn't allow her body to recover, it belongs to only him. Many women are pressured to have sex immediately even though medically we are told 6 weeks (and we know it's more 🙄 )
I'm going to treat this like a live tweet session bc I have thoughts every five minutes here but I feel an obligation to start with the first gag because ma'am did you just say "HITLER YOUTH AESTHETIC"?! 😭🥴 my soul fled my body PLEASE I can.notttt 😆🫠
My husband, who grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, is hate-obsessed with trad wives. He went through every picture and pointed out how dumb they were. His favorite was milking a cow into a pitcher, while holding the pitcher with one hand. Then another picture showed her pouring the pitcher into a milk bucket. He couldn't get over it, and also how clean she was. I'm very city and didn't really tune in to it until he pointed it out and now it's all I can see.
One thing I personally think about in relation to white feminism is girlhood. I am a white, college educated person, and despite myself, I kind of love "girlhood" and I feel guilty or wrong for it. What is it about marriage/romance/true love/fairy tale/happy ending stories that has my liberal brain in a choke hold?
(Only tangentially related but I'd actually love your thoughts). Great conversation!!
I feel the very similarly! Your tangential thought on girlhood reminds me so much of the monologue from Fleabag when she’s “confessing” to the “hot priest”…I think she articulates this ennui (or something else that I don’t have the word for) that I’ve also felt. If you haven’t seen it recently, def check out the clip. season 2 ep 5.
It’s almost like a cognitive dissonance that is deeply, culturally ingrained in us. Girls can do anything but also you’ll only be truly happy with the fairy tale ending. I don’t think it’s actually moral to want those things at all, but I do think it’s construed by our society (and benevolent or [maybe malevolent?] patriarchy). Perhaps it’s just cultural hegemony doing its job *really* well.
AND also how exhausting independence is? I think maybe we’ve culturally conflated feminism WITH individualism, which doesn’t really work for our species. We need to belong, we need community, and fulfilling relationships with others. The main idea posited to young girls in America is that you can obtain those relationships, that community, but only through romantic love and, ergo, marriage…and children, etc. Those aren’t wrong choices, but they’re not the only legitimate ones, either. The “two things can be true at once if it all” (hopefully). Maybe it’s the inherited, puritanical black-and-white, good-or-evil, feel-guilt-and-shame-or-feel-holier-than-thou false binary we’ve generally inherited in the US? Idk this topic takes up a lot of my brain space, obviously.
What’s interesting about your question on the exhaustion of independence is that women’s lives rarely get less exhausting post-fairytale romance. That is usually where the really exhausting activities kick in. Caring for a husband, kids, parents… but it takes time to realize life is getting harder not easier.
This. I was just going to reply that it might be age-related. My attraction to the fairy tale went out the window with marriage (decades) and realizing how much freaking work it requires of me to run the house and take care of and parent 4 kids. And it is made all the worse if you do not have an equal partner in this venture. If you marry someone who believes in that “provider” mentality and all he does is work (yes long hours) and occasionally helps out (if asked) but yet believes he is doing “so much” (bc he does more than his Boomer father ever did), well then, life is quite easier single-parenting and being independent. Sad but true.
Two of my favorite people to consume information from individually. You are both so well spoken, researched, and thoughtful. Together you are the gold medal duo in cultural commentary!! Please give the people more!
My mind isn’t as sharp as Katie’s and Caro’s, but from what my tired mother-of-young-children mind could understand, I think you hit the nail on the head re: benevolent patriarchy and Mormons. My experience with the church (I was excommunicated in 2016) is that the patriarchal structure, the Priesthood, forces men into caretaking from a young age, which is generally not bad and probably why so many people are defending Daniel and their marriage. I don’t totally understand the meaning and use of the term “benevolent patriarchy” but it’s… a bad thing? Everyone is happy with their illusion of choice? What is the term for a patriarchy that is actually in service of equality and choices? Is there a term for it, or would patriarchy be left out and it’s some middle ground between patriarchy and matriarchy? Middle… archy? 😂
Egalitarianism, maybe? No form of patriarchy can truly be benevolent; the term is confusing because it sounds beneficial but it’s a myth/way of presenting patriarchy that makes it look like a decent choice. For what it’s worth, I’m down for matriarchy. Let the record reflect that. Haha
So in the Mormon church it (technically, they are called Latter Day Saints, not Mormons) when I was growing up in it there was this idea or belief (not doctrine, as far as I know) that the priesthood is given to men because they aren’t born “holding the hand of God” the way women are because of our ability to create and nurture life. My experience of the priesthood, or the patriarchal structure of the church, was very positive on an organizational and personal level. So is it … egalitarian? Even though the organizational power is reserved for men? Or is it benevolent patriarchy, and my experience is an illusion?
Caro/Katie: Been meaning to send this to your for your discourse on the fetishization of Trad-Wifery. I hope you find it useful. Quoted portion starts about 40% the way in.
Also: I feel like women fetishizing Trad-Wifery is akin to men 10-12 years ago fetishizing JSOC Delta/SEALS guy lifestyles (Chris Kyle and the like), and how that was propagated through things like CrossFit. Feel free to steal the analogy of you feel it has merit.
Anyway, the quote:
"A woman would put her clothes into the first washtub and wash them by bending over the washboard. Back in those days they couldn’t afford store-bought soap, so they would use soap made of lye. “Do you know what it's like to use lye soap all day?” they'd ask me. “Well, that soap would strip the skin off your hands like it was a glove.” Then they’d shift the clothes to the vat of boiling water and try to get out the rest of the dirt by “punching” the clothes with a broom handle—standing there and swirling them around like the agitator in a washing machine. Then they’d shift the clothes to the second zinc washtub—the rinsing tub—and finally to the bluing tub.
The clothes would be shifted from tub to tub by lifting them out on the end of a broomstick. These old women would say to me, "You’re from the city—I bet you don't know how heavy a load of wet clothes on the end of a broomstick is. Here, feel it.” And I did—and in that moment I understood more about what electricity had meant to the Hill Country and why the people loved the man who brought it. A dripping load of soggy clothes on the end of a broomstick is heavy. Each load had to be moved on that broomstick from one washtub to the other. For the average Hill Country farm family, a week’s wash consisted of eight loads. For each load, of course, the woman had to go back to the well and haul more water on her yoke. And all this effort was in addition to bending all day over the scrubboards. Lyndon's cousin Ava, who still lives in Johnson City, told me one day, “By the time you got done washing, your back was broke. I’ll tell you—of the things in my life that I will never forget, I will never forget how my back hurt on washdays.” Hauling the water, scrubbing, punching the clothes, rinsing: a Hill Country wife did this for hours on end; a city wife did it by pressing the button on her electric washing machine."
Loved this episode!! Curious if you have read the book Billionaire Wilderness? There are some fascinating interviews in there. I am clearly obsessed with the ultra-wealthy cosplaying cowboy phenomenon lol
Thanks for leaving such a thoughtful comment — I’ve been thinking a lot since we recorded about Caro’s comment about making another option look good. Aka, we need the equal but opposite PR campaign that patriarchy is currently running for white women
Did anyone else find it incredibly bizarre when Daniel made the comment about her always getting pregnant 9 months after giving birth? She was basically like yeah it's God's will, and he was basically like *well it is God's will but it also somehow always seems to happen 9 months after childbirth like clockwork 🤠*..... Why did he say that? What was that supposed to signify? 🥴🤔
yes. totally clocked that and was like, what’s the significance here? The consistency??
That he doesn't allow her body to recover, it belongs to only him. Many women are pressured to have sex immediately even though medically we are told 6 weeks (and we know it's more 🙄 )
I'm going to treat this like a live tweet session bc I have thoughts every five minutes here but I feel an obligation to start with the first gag because ma'am did you just say "HITLER YOUTH AESTHETIC"?! 😭🥴 my soul fled my body PLEASE I can.notttt 😆🫠
YOU KNOW ITS TRUE!!! lol
My husband, who grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, is hate-obsessed with trad wives. He went through every picture and pointed out how dumb they were. His favorite was milking a cow into a pitcher, while holding the pitcher with one hand. Then another picture showed her pouring the pitcher into a milk bucket. He couldn't get over it, and also how clean she was. I'm very city and didn't really tune in to it until he pointed it out and now it's all I can see.
One thing I personally think about in relation to white feminism is girlhood. I am a white, college educated person, and despite myself, I kind of love "girlhood" and I feel guilty or wrong for it. What is it about marriage/romance/true love/fairy tale/happy ending stories that has my liberal brain in a choke hold?
(Only tangentially related but I'd actually love your thoughts). Great conversation!!
I feel the very similarly! Your tangential thought on girlhood reminds me so much of the monologue from Fleabag when she’s “confessing” to the “hot priest”…I think she articulates this ennui (or something else that I don’t have the word for) that I’ve also felt. If you haven’t seen it recently, def check out the clip. season 2 ep 5.
It’s almost like a cognitive dissonance that is deeply, culturally ingrained in us. Girls can do anything but also you’ll only be truly happy with the fairy tale ending. I don’t think it’s actually moral to want those things at all, but I do think it’s construed by our society (and benevolent or [maybe malevolent?] patriarchy). Perhaps it’s just cultural hegemony doing its job *really* well.
AND also how exhausting independence is? I think maybe we’ve culturally conflated feminism WITH individualism, which doesn’t really work for our species. We need to belong, we need community, and fulfilling relationships with others. The main idea posited to young girls in America is that you can obtain those relationships, that community, but only through romantic love and, ergo, marriage…and children, etc. Those aren’t wrong choices, but they’re not the only legitimate ones, either. The “two things can be true at once if it all” (hopefully). Maybe it’s the inherited, puritanical black-and-white, good-or-evil, feel-guilt-and-shame-or-feel-holier-than-thou false binary we’ve generally inherited in the US? Idk this topic takes up a lot of my brain space, obviously.
I’m curious about your thoughts?
What’s interesting about your question on the exhaustion of independence is that women’s lives rarely get less exhausting post-fairytale romance. That is usually where the really exhausting activities kick in. Caring for a husband, kids, parents… but it takes time to realize life is getting harder not easier.
This. I was just going to reply that it might be age-related. My attraction to the fairy tale went out the window with marriage (decades) and realizing how much freaking work it requires of me to run the house and take care of and parent 4 kids. And it is made all the worse if you do not have an equal partner in this venture. If you marry someone who believes in that “provider” mentality and all he does is work (yes long hours) and occasionally helps out (if asked) but yet believes he is doing “so much” (bc he does more than his Boomer father ever did), well then, life is quite easier single-parenting and being independent. Sad but true.
This thread is really insightful and I appreciate you guys taking the time to share what you’re thinking about
This is my favorite partnership of all time
😭😂 I just love yapping with Caro
Two of my favorite people to consume information from individually. You are both so well spoken, researched, and thoughtful. Together you are the gold medal duo in cultural commentary!! Please give the people more!
Wow, I am beaming at my phone. Thank you so much!! We fully intend to keep going!
Late here but had to say I laughed at Caro completely skating by Katie’s SpongeBob reference (“she was number ooooone!”)
My home podcast in every way 💞
It’s a great regret of my life that I missed this while recording
SpongeBob references are my native tongue and I’m so happy someone caught that
My mind isn’t as sharp as Katie’s and Caro’s, but from what my tired mother-of-young-children mind could understand, I think you hit the nail on the head re: benevolent patriarchy and Mormons. My experience with the church (I was excommunicated in 2016) is that the patriarchal structure, the Priesthood, forces men into caretaking from a young age, which is generally not bad and probably why so many people are defending Daniel and their marriage. I don’t totally understand the meaning and use of the term “benevolent patriarchy” but it’s… a bad thing? Everyone is happy with their illusion of choice? What is the term for a patriarchy that is actually in service of equality and choices? Is there a term for it, or would patriarchy be left out and it’s some middle ground between patriarchy and matriarchy? Middle… archy? 😂
Egalitarianism, maybe? No form of patriarchy can truly be benevolent; the term is confusing because it sounds beneficial but it’s a myth/way of presenting patriarchy that makes it look like a decent choice. For what it’s worth, I’m down for matriarchy. Let the record reflect that. Haha
So in the Mormon church it (technically, they are called Latter Day Saints, not Mormons) when I was growing up in it there was this idea or belief (not doctrine, as far as I know) that the priesthood is given to men because they aren’t born “holding the hand of God” the way women are because of our ability to create and nurture life. My experience of the priesthood, or the patriarchal structure of the church, was very positive on an organizational and personal level. So is it … egalitarian? Even though the organizational power is reserved for men? Or is it benevolent patriarchy, and my experience is an illusion?
Great inaugural episode! Can’t wait to hear more! 😊
brilliant, responsible, and generous. thank you!
Caro/Katie: Been meaning to send this to your for your discourse on the fetishization of Trad-Wifery. I hope you find it useful. Quoted portion starts about 40% the way in.
https://www.robertcaro.org/post/robert-caro-on-the-art-of-biography
Also: I feel like women fetishizing Trad-Wifery is akin to men 10-12 years ago fetishizing JSOC Delta/SEALS guy lifestyles (Chris Kyle and the like), and how that was propagated through things like CrossFit. Feel free to steal the analogy of you feel it has merit.
Anyway, the quote:
"A woman would put her clothes into the first washtub and wash them by bending over the washboard. Back in those days they couldn’t afford store-bought soap, so they would use soap made of lye. “Do you know what it's like to use lye soap all day?” they'd ask me. “Well, that soap would strip the skin off your hands like it was a glove.” Then they’d shift the clothes to the vat of boiling water and try to get out the rest of the dirt by “punching” the clothes with a broom handle—standing there and swirling them around like the agitator in a washing machine. Then they’d shift the clothes to the second zinc washtub—the rinsing tub—and finally to the bluing tub.
The clothes would be shifted from tub to tub by lifting them out on the end of a broomstick. These old women would say to me, "You’re from the city—I bet you don't know how heavy a load of wet clothes on the end of a broomstick is. Here, feel it.” And I did—and in that moment I understood more about what electricity had meant to the Hill Country and why the people loved the man who brought it. A dripping load of soggy clothes on the end of a broomstick is heavy. Each load had to be moved on that broomstick from one washtub to the other. For the average Hill Country farm family, a week’s wash consisted of eight loads. For each load, of course, the woman had to go back to the well and haul more water on her yoke. And all this effort was in addition to bending all day over the scrubboards. Lyndon's cousin Ava, who still lives in Johnson City, told me one day, “By the time you got done washing, your back was broke. I’ll tell you—of the things in my life that I will never forget, I will never forget how my back hurt on washdays.” Hauling the water, scrubbing, punching the clothes, rinsing: a Hill Country wife did this for hours on end; a city wife did it by pressing the button on her electric washing machine."
Toy castle 😂
Loved this episode!! Curious if you have read the book Billionaire Wilderness? There are some fascinating interviews in there. I am clearly obsessed with the ultra-wealthy cosplaying cowboy phenomenon lol
Thanks for leaving such a thoughtful comment — I’ve been thinking a lot since we recorded about Caro’s comment about making another option look good. Aka, we need the equal but opposite PR campaign that patriarchy is currently running for white women